The Miracle of Zionism

"Israel is the only nation in the world that is governing itself in the same territory, under the same name, and with the same religion and same language as it did 3,000 years ago." - Historian Barbara Tuchman

"Israel is the only nation on the face of the earth that was created by a sovereign act of God" - Pastor John Hagee

"All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" - Author / Atheist, Mark Twain (long before the Holocaust and Israeli-Jewish statehood)

"They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a Bauble in comparison of the Jews. They have given religion to three quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of Mankind more, and more happily, than any other Nation ancient or modern." - President John Adams - His 1808 response letter criticizing the depiction of Jews by the French Enlightenment philosopher Voltaire.

Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Israel's Eternal Covenant: Take it or Leave it

What clears or clouds the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict more than anything else is whether or not one accepts God's eternal covenant with Israel. When one rejects this spiritual covenant many gray areas may appear because the issue then becomes only political in the mindset of that rejection, and where all spiritual concerns are addressed politically instead of spiritually. However, when the Israeli-Palestinian conflict issue is seen through the eternal covenant all issues concerning the conflict are no longer gray but becomes a black and white issue altogether allowing one to place any political concerns in a biblical (therefore righteous) prospective.
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As a testimony to the world as to the righteousness of the covenant, the Palestinians hold and manifest the most evil than any other people on the planet. By that I mean their open evil should demonstrate to the world to go the opposite way of the Palestinians. The Palestinian rejection of the eternal covenant God has with Israel while being the closest to them (even inside Israel’s ancient homeland) causes them to be the most vicious of peoples. Their very foundation is steeped in actual Nazism via al-Hajj Amin Husseini via al-Fatah via Hamas. Also, more terrorism comes out from among the Palestinians than any other people on the planet. Their resume' as a people includes but certainly not limited to: Naming highways, streets, soccer stadiums, schools, hospitals, special events, ect. after dead murderous terrorists that they call shahids - martyrs. Their children are taught in the home, on television, in the classroom, in the textbooks, and during sermons at the mosque, to kill Jews and shahid themselves for the glory of their Allah-god.

I mean, where else could one go in the world but to An-Najach University in Nables to walk upon a US and Israeli flags upon entering and to see an exhibition of torn apart and mangled bodies that occurred at a Sbarro pizza restaurant in order to glorify the shahid -suicide bomber? 1 Of course, no other people since Hitler and the Nazis have been more responsible for Jewish murder of men, women, seniors, children, and infants, than the Palestinians!

Just these eye-opening realities alone should convince the world that absolutely nothing in support or in giving should be awarded the Palestinian people, but it doesn’t. Why? Because the world rejects the eternal covenant God has with the Jews and whereby it takes up the causes of the Palestinians regardless of how evil they are or become!

The Quartet (UN, EU, USA, Russia) is responsible for placing literally billions of dollars in the hands of these terrorist people knowing their murderous history, even offering a moment of silence at an UN meeting for the terrorist murderers (those who died for the cause of Palestine) while a map of all of Israel being called Palestine stood on display!2

Again, why this political insanity? It’s because of the world's rejection of the eternal covenant. And because the rejection is eternal, it is an eternal damnable offense the world is making. Ironically, if this covenant that God has with the Jews would have been accepted by the nations, not one single issue for the Palestinian cause would have been accepted or promoted. The Palestinian insanity that we see today would be viewed by the nations for what it is, insanity, and measures would have been made to shut it down forever. Instead, we see the Palestinian cause blossoming.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict for now will continue until just before the annihilating of Israel by the Gentile nations. It will be at this time that God of Israel has promised to save Israel from that destruction and begins the judgment of nations (see Zechariah 14 / Joel 3:2)

The epic center of this conflict is the Temple Mount, the most holiest place being that it’s connected directly to the eternal covenant God has with Israel. Once the nations have given their stamp of approval of this holy place to be given to the most evil of peoples, and with it the destruction of Israel, God has promised to judge from that very location while given His stamp of approval as to His covenant people obtaining that holy place for His honor. (See Joel 3:2 / Zechariah 8 / Ezekiel 36 / Ezekiel 37)

Biblically, God’s eternal covenant with the Jewish people is made quite clear in Psalms 105:8-10 "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant"

Israel’s prophecy of return to the land of their forefathers (under the abiding covenant) by which could not have happened during the 5% Babylonian return, because there was no messiah present and righteousness afterwards, nor could it have been during the time of Jesus because there was no massive in-gathering of the exiles as it is to be according to prophecy. "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." - Ezekiel 37:22-28
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Israel’s prophesied righteousness (something that never gets acknowledged by those who advocate a ‘new’ covenant) is spelled out by the prophets in many places and is brought about in compliance with the eternal covenant God has with Israel.
"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." - Isaiah 59:20-21

The bottom line is this: a rejection of God’s eternal covenant will automatically cause one to at least compromise righteous judgment concerning the Palestinians cause. Only those who acknowledge the eternal covenant will take on a true biblical prospective of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and therefore make a biblical based judgment.

Notes:
1. A video clip of this event in September, 2001 can be seen in the documentary "Relentless: The Struggle for Peace in Israel"

2.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/94461

58 comments:

Kevin said...

Joe,
I do not reject God's covenant with Israel. I hold that God has a special relationship with the Jews. Questioning whether it is just for Israel to withhold food to noncombatants means I reject God's covenant with Israel? Believing it is unjust for Israel to completely level Palestinian towns--murdering noncombatants--means I reject God's covenenant with Israel? Please enlighten me how this is so.

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,

I will do my best to enlighten you.

If you really believe that God's covenant with the Jews is still in effect that He promised unto David and to the seed of Jacob, then in no way, shape or form, could you support a Palestinian state, or even the presence of those people in that land that God by covenant gave unto the seed of Jacob, of whom overwhelmingly voted in Hamas knowing full well what they stood for (the destruction of Israel) by their very covenant.

What I don't understand is why you, like what CNN did during the 2006 Lebanon war, can even begin to consider questioning Israel's defensive tactics when rockets are currently flying over and unto Israeli "targeted" noncombatants?

The energy it takes to be concerned over hungry Palestinian noncombatants should be channeled into an even greater concern over the bottom-line cause of the conflict which is Palestinian terrorism first and foremost.

What really would make Israel "unjust" is to allow the rockets to keep flying killing their noncombatant citizens without doing everything within their power to stop it completely. In this, the world media seems to think Israel should be unjust!

Israel is doing what the UN itself should be doing which cutting off all supplies until their terrorism (brought about by their culture of terrorism) comes to a complete halt! Instead its a world game that is played out against the Israelis by which you have bought into.

The UN feeds the Palestinian culture of terrorism by rewarding them with goods, money, and services which is a far greater sin than causing it to be withheld when ones country is being attacked due to that very well-fed terrorism. And since the Palestinians hate the Jews more than they can love their own (the proof of this is their majority support of the suicide bombers) they are willing to become the victims while the seemingly poor innocent UN just wants to feed those seemingly poor, poor, innocent Palestinian victims who are so oppressed by those seemingly bad evil shylock Israelis of aggression! Make sense?

All this goes on the while both the UN and all political parties of the Palestinians seeks vehemently to destroy Israel.

While you're worried about little Mohammad going hungry in Gaza, I'm worried about little Moshe (Moses) dying from rocket shrapnel in Sderot.

Maybe little Mohammad's noncombatant mother will stop teaching him to call Jew dogs, and maybe his noncombatant teacher will stop prompting him to become a shahid, maybe the noncombatant school text book printers will stop publishing pro-jihad text book for little Mohammad to read, and maybe his noncombatant Imam will stop filling his head with 72 black eyed virgins if and when he becomes that shahid. Then maybe he himself won't become a actual combatant? Then they all can have plenty to eat.

And if all this don't turn out, Israel can always use "the just" Hiroshima and Nagasaki tactic that we ourselves used to save many American lives. What do you think?

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
In continuing my response I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstood. To presume that I hate or could careless about the Palestinian children couldn't be further from the truth. I believe and have always said that the Palestinian children are part of the worst case national child abuse in modern history, and perhaps in all of world history, of which I hold Islam and the Palestinian culture and nationalism completely responsible.

When a child's mind has been brainwashed to the point to not only hate the Jews as part of a religion and national culture, but to also be encouraged to destroy their very own body as the highest form of religious and national devotion and expression is nothing less than religious and national insanity forced upon their children innocent minds!

What 'should' be done in my humble Zionist opinion is a UN sponsored massive rescue of all the children living in Gaza and the West Bank form the child-warping Palestinian society. This of course will never happen because it's too logical, righteous, and politically incorrect.

Therefore, Israel is forced by their duty to protect their citizens whatever the cost and by whatever mean necessary including shutting off anything that feeds or could contribute to the continuance to them being attacked. There is no harm in pressuring the Palestinian people and government to pressure the rocket shooters to stop their murderous activities when in fact, they should have been doing that to begin with!

The bottom line is that the feeding of the Palestinian people rests solely upon the Palestinian decision as to whether they will continue their rockets attacks or not. They know full well that food will start arriving once they have decided to discontinue their rocket firing.

To suggest that any percentage of the blame be placed upon the Israelis for something the Palestinians are in 100% in control of by stopping their wrong that they had indeed started to begin with, is simply wrong within itself.

The Israelis are more than justified in placing the Palestinians with that very decision making situation (food for stopping rocket fire) being that it is them who are taking the rocket fire to begin with. If there is a flaw in this logic please let me know where.

To continue their rocket fire means that they are less concerned about feeding their noncombatants that you are, for the sake of the continuance of murdering noncombatant Israelis. Unless of course, they are relying on the UN and Associated Press to pressure Israel in the name of "justice" so they can continue committing their murderous rocket-firing acts and eat well on UN sponsored food at the same time?

-Joe

Kevin said...

So, I think I can succintly sum up your two previous posts with: if you disagree with Israel, then you're wrong and should be put to death. While this may satisfy the dsires of man's evil flesh, it is not biblical. God is a just God who prescribes proportional justice.

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
The issue of my posts is not whether one disagrees with Israel or not. I personally disagree with Israels' current liberal government more than not. The issue is "rocket fire" upon innocent noncombatant civilians and its terrorists causes of which one should be the most concerned over.

What would the God of justice warrant for such an unprovoked murderous aggression as proportional justice for such a rocket firer and all those who give support for his acts? To turn the other cheek? I don't think so.

While a simple disagreement with Israel's government is one thing, the disagreement with God's everlasting covenant is spiritually quite a another. Still, my call for for such is to repent of such biblical rejection, not death.

However, to rocket firer and every single soul who played even the smallest role of support in that rocket firing should by biblical standards be put to death, you bet!

"And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death." Numbers 35:15-16

I know, I know, you believe God has a special relationship with the Jews but such God-given scriptures of principle no longer applies to them since Jesus told them to turn the other cheek. Perhaps, if rocket shrapnel punctures an Israeli's cheek, he can turn his/her face to a different side for the next round of Palestinian rockets attacks?

You seem to think that the rocket firer and only the rocket firer is responsible for the attack. Off hand, I can't think of anyone at the Nuremberg trails that actually physically murdered a Jew. Hitler never physically took part in operation of the concentration camps, yet he as well those who were hang at Nuremberg were as guilty as those who committed those very acts.

Even though David never touched Uriah, his blood was still on his hands. (Psalms 51:14)

Would you sum up the Psalmist as you have me concerning death for disagreeing with Israel?

Psalms 83:6-18 "The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; "the Philistines" with the inhabitants of Tyre;
Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:
Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.
Make their nobles like Oreb, and like Zeeb: yea, all their princes as Zebah, and as Zalmunna:
Who said, Let us take to ourselves the houses of God in possession.
O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.
Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

Again, tell how the Palestinian people, as a people are not responsible for every attack on the Jews. Did the noncombatants elect Hamas? Did they vote for Arafat's Fatah? Do they willfully go to mosque where the Imam preaches hate and destruction of Jews? Do you consider official PA and Hamas television who advocates the destruction of Israel on children television shows as well as grownup shows, noncombatants? Are the Imams who preach the destruction of Israel, noncambatants? Are those who place posters of shahid martyrs all over Gaza and the West Bank for all to see and be inspired by, noncombatants?

Is the Palestinian society guilty as a whole of trying from the 1929 Hevron massacre on, guilty of trying destroy Israel, and like Hitler, murder Jews? This is not a political question but a very spiritual one, so answer it before the Almighty God of Israel and of justice carefully.
-Joe

Julia R said...

Joe,

I have learned from experience that no matter how much you present the truth to those liberals who are brainwashed by CNN/MSNBC etc., you are beating your head against the wall. Until they go out on their own and research the truth, they will continue to believe what they want to believe. I can only hope and pray that the new "regime" continues their support of Israel. For if we no longer continue to bless Israel, God will no longer bless us. I truly believe the United States was formed to a) be a safe haven for God's chosen people, and b) to be a light in the darkness for the Gentiles who have yet to know the truth. We are falling right into the Enemy's plan if we continue to believe all the liberal press has to say concerning Israel and her right to protect her people. And BTW, Joe's last comment about the Hiroshima approach could just come to light if Iran is allowed to finish their nuclear bombs.....oh, wait, that's right-there are no weapons of mass destruction anywhere around Iraq, Iran, or the Middle East. Wake up, liberals, before it's too late--for you, your family, our countries (USA and Israel), and the world!!!!

Robert said...

Regarding Israel shutting off the food supply to Palestine:

Question:
1. The Arabs are the richest nations in the world at this time, why cannot they feed their Muslim brothers the Palestinians?
2. The Arabs have a thousand times more land than the Israelis, most Arab land is unoccupied, why can't they take in their Muslim brothers, the Palestinians?

Answer - They don't, because the Palestinians are simply a tool for them to terrorize and destroy Israel. Which is their stated purpose.

Question: What should Israel do to protect her people: smite the tool at a small cost of lives, or smite the hand that wields the tool, at the cost of millions of lives?

Question - How should a fundamental Christian view this issue?
1. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
2. Realize God will ultimately judge.
3. Realize this is a spiritual war/issue far more than a
physical one.
4. Realize that in every war that has ever been, (and this is a war) innocent will suffer.
5. Realize what Israel faces, if they allow the Palestinians to run over them - they are done as a nation.
6. Remember what the Book says, "I will bless them that bless
you and curse them that curse you."

Kevin said...

As I understand the Bible, God is a God who believes in proportional responses (Exodus 21:23-25). I do not believe it is reprehensible to question whether governmental policies are just. Nor do I believe Israel should turn the other cheek (in fact, as a Christian I believe a primary role for government is to protect its citizens--Rom 13:1-6).

I would question whether Israel's tactics for dealing with the Palestinians is really effective. How many decades has this conflict been raging? There comes a point in time when one needs to evaluate the strategy. I'm not saying Israel should change strategies but those who question Israeli policies should not automatically be branded liberal or Israel hating or whatever other invective you want to use.

You ask if Palestinians are responsble for trying to destroy Israel and the Jews. My answer is that there are some Palestinians and other Arabs who are guilty of this. What's your point? Jews don't have a divine right to kill every Palestinian just because the Palestinian leadership advocates the destruction of Israel. You bring up the Nuremburg trials--those on trial were Nazi leadership. How many German noncombatants were on trial?

Ultimately it comes down to this: Israel has a right to protect itself from aggression. But, its response must be measured and proportional.

Julia, I certainly agree with you that America should bless Israel. We ought to support Israel and defend its right to exist. But, that does not mean we blindly support Israel. God didn't make us robots--he gave us a brain to think. We ought to evaluate whether certain policies ought to be supported. Israel has turned away from God many times and each time they faced consequences. As to your comments about why America is here; I suppose you could be right with your reasons. My observation, at least regarding "b" is that American Christianity is nothing compared to the Christianity being practiced throughout the developing world. Hearing of believers suffering under persecution who have a vibrant, growing faith in Jesus Christ is inspiring. American Christianity is becoming more and more focused on health, wealth, and self. May we learn from our persecuted brothers and sisters in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa.

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
The rocket firing into Israel upon its citizens is only a symptom of a much larger spiritual issue.
The whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict by which the rocket-fire occurs, when you break in all down, is a battle between gods (Elohim and Allah) between the God of the Bible and the god of the Koran. The fact that Jewish Zionism is directly connected to the Bible and Hamas' stated covenant proves this to be so.
Therefore, one cannot make a spiritual sound judgment on this issue without first recognizing and understanding this reality.
Since this is a spiritual issue then there is a spiritual Bible-based solution.

The "proportional response" that you believe Israel should be limited to only leads to further and even more acts of terrorism and murdered Israelis. How can this be the right biblical solution?

I have yet to hear from you as to what you think Israel should be doing to rid themselves of this rocket firing situation? When will you be ready to give me a Bible-based answer? Does your belief that Israel has a right to defend itself included a one-time fix for all time or should Israel try to do a temporary fix until the Palestinians feel the next they feel a need on a whim and fancy to send more rockets into Israel?

I'm not quite understanding your approval of America's use of atomic weapons to save American by bypassing an invasion, when Israel has had to go back into Gaza and many places like Jenin militarily many times to knock down terrorists cells who like Japan struck American soil, struck Israel proper. So I'm sure your ready to tell me how its "just" to destroy 800,000 innocent men, women, seniors, children, infants of the Japanese in order to save American lives, but its somehow "unjust" for Israel to destroy far less number of Palestinians to saves Israeli lives? I think the word you used on me was "propaganda" now let's hear yours.

Most all Palestinians are guilty of voting for either Hamas or Arafat's Fatah. To suggest that Fatah is "moderate" as the world media does after all the Jewish blood that is an absolute joke of the worst kind!
By voting for such terrorist organizations the Palestinians have given their physical approval of everything the Hamas' and Fatah's covenants have announced to the public that they stand for, which is nothing less than the total destruction of Israel via "arms struggle".

In fact many of the candidates who won in the 2006 election was sitting in Israeli prisons for their role in terrorists attacks! Miriam Farhat, aka "mother of the martyrs" ran as a Hamas female candidate due to her three sons (count them) becoming shahids suicide bombers! Oh, but let's use some "proportional response" when dealing with this society, right?

I'm not advocating this, and I'm only saying this to make a point, but what would be "proportional" is for the Israelis to start blowing up Palestinian buses, restaurants, mosques, every time one of theirs gets hit. Yes I know, comparing your quoted Exodus 21:25 with Psalms 137:8-9 can a little politically incorrect.

Do you consider 150,000 Palestinians in Gaza "a few" or a "very few"? The reason I asked is because that is the estimated number of Palestinians that attended Yahya Ayyash's funeral. Do you know who this Palestinian hero is? He is also known as "The Engineer". His face has been glorified all over Gaza and the West Bank. He designed the suicide belt and its usage in attacks upon hundreds of Israeli citizens. I know, I know, its unjust for all that many people to go hungry.

The bottom line is this: You think stopping food from going into Gaza is not a proportional response, while I think there is nothing wrong with its tactic but is still a very "weak" tactic. You say it's only the combatants fault and government workers like those hanged at Nuremberg, and not the ones who voted them in. Ok, fine, now what problem do you have with Israel going in and wiping every government member and very combatant out that has played even the smallest role toward terrorism against Israel?
Since America's atomic weapons were "just" on noncombatants and Israel has a right to defend itself, I know you (unlike Bush and Blair) will have absolutely no problem with Israel doing a massive invasion (unlike the Americans in Japan) and destroying every single cell, storage house, every Hamas member, every Fatah member including Holocaust-denying Abbas who helped in the Munich massacre and supported Arafat in the Malot massacre)right? Such an invasion should only have one goal - to stop all forms of terror against Israel "forever" and anything short of this goal is not allowing Israel to rightly defend itself, right? Come on...right?

If this is not a "proportional" and "just" response to their terrorism against innocent men, women, seniors, children, and infants, please let me know just what Israel should then do. After all this discussion, don't say that you don't know or don't have an answer for the problem, because I just gave you one.

I'm just guessing, and I hope that I'm wrong, but since I backed you into a corner so to speak, your going to start blaming Israel for Palestinian terrorism trying to create a "tit for tat" argument in avoiding the reality of what truly needs to be done? Please don't. Just tell me what Israel (the non- aggressor) should be doing in response to Palestinian Nazi-based, Hamas elected, rocket shooting terrorism that will solve the problem once and for all? Give them some more land maybe? Fill Israel proper with 4 million Palestinians so the nation would no longer be Jewish? What?

Robert said...

Kevin says the following:

1. "God is a God who believes in proportional responses." and "You ask if Palestinians are responsible for trying to destroy Israel and the Jews. My answer is that there are some Palestinians and other Arabs who are guilty of this. What's your point? Jews don't have a divine right to kill every Palestinian just because the Palestinian leadership advocates the destruction of Israel."

Answer: Well, I am sure when the Flood came (global of course)
that children suffered for the sins of the "leadership" I am sure that when the 10 Plagues fell on Egypt, innocent Egyptians suffered for the sins of the "leadership"- Pharaoh.
When certain leaders of the tribes of Israel, rebelled against
Moses, I seem to remember the earth opening up and destroying them and their families and followers. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, I am sure innocents (children) were in the cities, thus suffering for the sins of the leadership.
When I think of how God told Israel how to deal with the
Amalakites and the Canaanites.. no doubt the real problem was just with the "leadership... yet, God's command was pretty blunt - basically - don't leave anyone or anything alive.
Numerous more examples come to mind but these should be enough.

My point, Kevin seems to be asking the Israeli Military to do what God
never chosen to do, somehow separate the wheat and the chaff -(at least until judgment day).

Joe Whitehead said...

Robert, I totally agree. Amen!
Ezekiel 25:14 states the following:
"And I {God) will lay my vengeance upon Edom BY THE HAND OF BY PEOPLE ISRAEL: and THEY [Israel] SHALL DO in Edom "according to mine anger" and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD."

Hear, hear, modern Israel....Do the righteous thing; forget the Quartet and get after it on those Palestinians!

Note to Kevin: The scripture above were several centuries after the time of Moses and the "one-time" killing of Israel's enemies. Amen?

Kevin said...

Joe et al,
My heart grieves for murdered Jews and I am appalled that Israel is under constant threat of attack and destruction. I do not have a visceral hatred of Palestinians and I do not wish to see them slaughtered. It is true that everyone (not just Palestinians) on this earth deserves eternal punishment in hell because of our rebellion against God. But God mercifully offers free grace to all and by accepting this grace he allows us to spend eternity with Him in Heaven. I believe this is offered to ALL, including Palestinians. I guess that’s why I’m not so quick to jump on your death and destruction of Palestinians bandwagon. Anyway, on to addressing some things you brought up….

The Bible introduces the concept of proportional responses in Exodus 21:23-25. The Just War theory thus demands (among other things like minimizing casualties to noncombatants) that a war must be proportional. Will the human cost of armed conflict to both sides be proportionate to the stated objectives and goals? I believe that the American bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were proportional. I have said numerous times to you that I am not saying cutting off food aid to Palestinians is unjust. I am merely questioning—thinking critically about such an action. I do believe it is a harsh response. I did state in my initial reply to your post that completely leveling Palestinian towns over this issue is unjust (in response to a conversation we had in which you stated, while smiling, that you believe that is a completely just response).

Now, you and Robert have pointed out that there are examples of such drastic actions in the Bible. I agree. Here’s the difference: God commanded these actions. It wasn’t man’s idea to flood the world. Man didn’t have any control over the action. The Supreme Author and Ruler of the Universe took this action ALONE. The plagues against the Egyptians were not man’s idea. Man did not cause these plagues to happen. The Sovereign and Just God did. In fact, every example that Robert gives was commanded by God for a specific time and a specific purpose (plus with regards to the Flood and the plagues, these had NOTHING to do with war). These are not ongoing commands! The example of Ezekial 25:14-17 is not an ongoing command. We are not to apply that to our lives (in other words we should not take this Scripture as a license to kill Edomites (and I assume you claim the Edomites are the Arabs of today, although I’m not sure of that)). Yes Robert, I AM asking the Israeli army to not assume the power and authority of God, because they don’t have it! Is it wrong to question the Israeli government’s actions? You both seem to think so. I think that is completely wrong. Jews have been wrong before, right? They have acted wickedly before, right? When did they get the divine mandate to take the actions they are taking today (and I don’t mean the mandate to the land—I’m not questioning that—I mean the divine mandate to cut off food aid)? Did God inspire additional Scripture authorizing starving the Palestinians?

As far as the support of Hamas and Fatah, the International Foundation for Electoral Systems has an interesting and short article concerning the Palestinian elections (http://www.ifes.org/features.html?title=How%20Hamas%20Won%20the%20Majority). The basic point is that Hamas did not receive as much support as the number of seats they won would suggest. You say that “most Palestinians” are guilty of voting for Hamas or Fatah. First, name me the percentage. Second, explain why they are suddenly combatants for voting that way. Third, tell me how children are culpable for the actions of adults. Fourth, why does voting a certain way make one a combatant, subject to death and torture? I’ve said time and time again that have a thought is not a crime. Saddam Hussein thinking that he hated America is not enough for America to overthrow his regime. Iran thinking it hates Israel and thinking that it wants to drive Israel to the sea is not enough to overthrow the regime. And the Bible nowhere supports a notion that governments should declare war based on thoughts. America is not a theocracy. Modern day Israel is not a theocracy. God has instituted governments (Rom 13) and these governments establish laws we are to follow. One of those laws is that we don’t punish thoughts (although, if liberals have their way with hate crimes laws this will soon change, but I digress). You want me to give you a solution to the Middle East peace problem. Here it is: all must follow Jesus Christ. Once that happens we’ll have no more Middle East problems. Failing that, I don’t have an answer. If I did I wouldn’t be talking to you, but instead advising the President.

Try to envision the same arguments you are using regarding the Palestinians being used against America. Heck, bin Laden DID use the same arguments and thus murdered 3000+ innocent men, women, and children on 9/11. He believed those non-combatants were actually combatants. I disagree with that and I disagree with you holding every Palestinian responsible for the actions of a few.

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin.
Some quick answers of which I'll go more into tomorrow when I have more time.
Please explain how atomic bombing Japan (800,000 dead including thousands of children) proportional and nuking Gaza(if they had to)and the West Bank (Palestinians area only of course) unproportional? I'm "still" not understanding your logic here.

Fact: January 2006 Palestinian Elections 77%turnout - Well over half of population.
Hamas 76 seats
Fatah 43 seats
Popular Front Liberation of Palestine 3 seats
Badeel 2 seats
Independent 2 seats
Third Way 2 seats
Source: The State of the Middle East (Atlas of Conflict and Resolution) page 59 (written by a all for Palestine liberal- Dan Smith).
Bottom line fact: with more than 3/4 (count them more than 3/4) of the population voting for 128 seats of government to represent them, the terrorist organizations won 124 seat (again out of 128 seats.
Please explain how this doesn't reflect the overwhelming will of the people?

God punishes by thought?
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against the Ammonites, and prophesy against them;
And say unto the Ammonites, Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou saidst, Aha, against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity; Behold, therefore I will deliver thee to the men of the east for a possession, and they shall set their palaces in thee, and make their dwellings in thee: they shall eat thy fruit, and they shall drink thy milk.
And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couchingplace for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 25:1-5

Notice judgment is placed upon the Ammonites in forms of their land being laid waste, the people being subjugated (their whole infrastructure destroyed) and their UN food (oops did I say something wrong) their food was not given to them but to another people. All this because they said (didn't act)something against the temple and against Israel being taken away by another people ("aha" meaning "hurray" best described in Hebrew)

This punishment included children and noncombatants is I'm not mistaken. I'll continue with my response in my next post.

Kevin said...

Joe,
The death toll in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was approx 220,000 and the five year toll around 300,000 people. A very sad number. But, when you look at the totality of the nature of World War II in the Pacific and the number of lives that would have been lost had the war continued, the action of bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just. The current Palestinian-Israeli conflict is nothing compared to World War II in the Pacific.

In your next post I would like for you to address a few of the points I made in my previous post, namely please tell me whether you think Israel can be wrong and then tell me whether you agree that the examples of God's judgement in the OT were for a specific time, specific people, and specific purpose.

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
It seems to me that it is your form of Christianity (the non-Christian Zionist type) that spiritually clouds your perception of both the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews. I’ve noticed this coming out now several times:
1. In your question to Robert: “Jews have been wrong before, right?” whereby you seemed to have placed the Jewish rejection of Jesus as a foundation of your viewpoint.
2. Your rejection of the Hebrew prophets words and all the Hebrew scriptures (including all principles) being applicable for Israel today.
3. You have been very adamant about separating Palestinian leadership from the so-called noncombatants, but this is not the case in your mindset concerning the Jews and their leadership. Case and point: Your statement “Jews have been wrong before, right?” shows that your mindset depicts the Jews as a complete single unit with no consideration of separating the Jewish leadership from the rest of the Jewish population as you consistently have done for the Palestinians.
4. You’re a John McCain supporter who is known for his “bomb, bomb, bomb” statement of Hamas, yet you are willing to go against your candidate in making excuses for the Palestinians terrorist society by minimizing their insanity, kind of like what the Holocaust deniers and Holocaust minimizes (many of them Christians) do with the Holocaust. I’m not accusing you of Holocaust minimizing, just comparing the two characteristics.
5. You have a lot of excuses for the Palestinian terrorist society that includes,
A. Hamas being not all that popular in their landslide victory (via web-site address you made mention of).
B. You maintain that parents, Imams, teachers, textbook polishers and printers, shahid street, hospital, soccer namers, terrorist glorification trading card printers, and all those involved in producing and airing Hamas and Fatah television shows that glorify the suicide bombers, as “noncombatants” nor do they play any role of support in the terrorism against Israel insomuch that Israel would have a right to strike against them for it.
C. The Palestinian society as a whole should not be responsible in no way shape or form to the expressed insanity listed above. All the blame must go to the government, never-ever the society who commits act and displays of Islamic Israel-hating even when much of it is without government involvement.
6. You continue to maintain after acknowledging the facts above that there is “only a few” radicals in the Palestinian society and that the Palestinians are not motivated first and foremost by Islam.

Reality check:
Of all the liberals in the world, which of our two views would they choose over how to handle the rocket fire?
Of all the terrorists (bin Laden / Ahmasdinejad ect.) in the world, which of our two views would they choose over how to handle the rocket fire?

Kevin, innocent Jewish men, women, seniors, children, and infants are being murdered almost daily yet your only solution to the Palestinian problem is do nothing and wait for them accept Jesus? Please tell me that it’s not the fact that we’re discussing Jewish (Jesus denying) victims that oppose any and all measures to totally eliminate the rocket problem, including the very exact same one that you deemed “proportional” that was used on the non-Jewish society of Japan?

Biblical Fact:
Everything that a people as a people does to another deserves everything done to them that that committed. The noncombatants are not an issue in Bible principles. Considering your proof-text Exodus 21: 23-25 as God being one of “proportionate” response, the Psalmist gives us a very clear understanding of applying this Exodus on a national level.

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:8-9

Notice the “proportional” words in the above scripture “that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us”. Doesn’t this sound like, “then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe”?

The psalmist then gives an example of this proportionate “eye for an eye” in a noncombatant - a little infant of all things. ”Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” - Psalms 137:9.

Basically, the psalmist is saying, “what you have done as a people O Babylon by dashing our Jewish little ones (our noncombatants) against the stones, may this also happen to your little ones - your noncombatants”. Why didn’t this holy-writing psalmist consider separating the noncombatants form the Babylonian leadership knowing full well the Torah that included Exodus 21:23-25? I just know you going to comment back a post and explain this.

Using the biblical principle "an eye for an eye": the Palestinians send as many rockets into Israel to kill as many Jews as possible, the Jews (Israelis) send as many rockets as possible into Palestinian areas to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Please show me where I missed the biblical principle of an eye for an eye in the above scenario, because I don't recall where the Israelites were instruction to make sure that they didn't kill more of their enemy than what their enemy had killed of theirs.

Ezekiel 25:1-5 tells us that God cursed the Ammonites because of their “hurray-thought” attitude at a time when Israel was being judged for Israel’s sin. Did you catch that? The whole Ammonite people (noncombatants and all) were cursed and would pay a very hefty price for being glad over Israel’s punishment! This shows God’s feeling for Israel even in his darkest hour of punishment for not obeying God, does it not? When did God’s commitment to Israel ever change whether Israel is in the wrong or not? When did God give up this principle of judging another nation (including its noncombatants) like Edom / Palestine as the biblical words say, “by the hand of my people Israel”? Does your Christian view have Jesus somehow fulfilling this principle of using Israel to punish a very wicked nation?

It seems to me (and I hope I’m wrong) that your liberal-leaning view of “there is a only a few radicals in Palestine” is a cover to benefit the Palestinians in their battle against the Jews which benefits your form of Christianity. The reason I say this is because your posting a web-site that makes excuses for Palestinians electing Hamas sounds an awful lot like Jimmy Carter (whom you think is heaven bound) stating we should give Hamas a chance, which is now being repeated by your boy, Tony Blair.

Your “few radicals” must include the leader of the Palestinians himself Mahmoud Abbas who is a Holocaust denier and who has stated on several occasions proclaimed suicide bombers as entering the Garden of Paradise (taken from Koranic passages) and that rifles should be pointed at the Israelis instead of each other (Fatah / Hamas) yet it’s only a few.

Terrorists organizations win 98.7% of the available parliamentary seats from a 77% turnout yet you chose to believe there are only a few radicals among the Palestinians. More terrorism and thwarted terrorist attacks comes from the Palestinians more than any other people including Al-Queda (of which bin Laden’s mentor was a Palestinian) and from which people is responsible for more Jewish deaths since Hitler, yet it only a few radical among the Palestinians? Mien Kamph was ranked #6 in 2003 in Palestinian best sellers, yet there are only a few radical among the Palestinians? The Palestinians have a four generation history (80 plus years) of committing Jewish massacres under their belt, yet there are only a few radicals among the Palestinians? There is a very low number of buildings within Palestinian areas that does display several shahid posters, yet there are only a few radicals among the Palestinians? The more the successful the suicide bomber or the “engineer” is, the more people his funeral attracts, yet there are only a few radicals among the Palestinians?

You seen to think that I’m a warmonger towards the Palestinians which is ironic because your defending the warmongering Palestinians longing to murder Jews (the proof is in the rocket-fire). My smile on my face in our conversation was due to my knowing I’m right and making a point using your approved method of nukes being used on Japan. However, when the murderous regime of the Palestinians is destroyed by God, don’t think that I won’t laugh (Psalms 52:5-6) and even shout with joy (Proverbs 11:10). You and Rev. Piper will be the first to be invited to my block party.

Your "no answer" on what to do about the Palestinian rocket fire is quite ironic given your deep criticism of the Israelis. Since Bethlehem is become Christian-free by those "oh so few radicals among the Palestinians" causing all that Islamic pressure, I wouldn’t hold my breath for your hungry Palestinians becoming Christians.

Instead of waiting for something that is never going to happen let’s examine some fail-safe plans that is guaranteed to work in stopping rocket fire "forever" even though this doesn’t seem to be your first and foremost desire on this issue, while criticizing Israel is.

We know that nukes and carpet bombing works wonders and would bomb that rocket firing will right out of the Palestinians. Will call this plan “A”. However, my preferred way (plan “B”) is to “transfer” everybody who don’t swear allegiance to the God of Israel and to the nation of Israel and denounce Islam and Allah as God (the true Palestinian noncombatants by biblical standards - example Rahab in the book of Joshua).
That’s right, a free one way trip to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. That way the Muslims can worship their demonic god Allah in Muslim lands while the Jews (whom you say still has a special relationship with God) can worship the God of Israel in their ancient homeland. And guess what, you can still wait on them to accept Jesus in their Muslim lands. If this can’t be worked out then there is always plan "A" on a smaller scale than was used on Japan of course. So why do I still sense your “UN approved” disapproval?

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
Regarding your last post, regardless of the magnitude of WWII the principle of the war remains the exact same. The Axis of Evil bombed London and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in an effort to overthrow the Allies. The Six Day War (as well as all the other wars Israel has and will fight) is derived from Israel's enemy that surround Israel on every side,to totally annihilate the Jewish state. Palestinian rockers and Hezbollah rockers from Lebanon carry the same goal - the annihilation of Israel. What the size of rockets that Hamas / Fatah and Hebollah can get their hands on, is what will be sent over into Israel the murder innocent Jewish civilians. You may not think so, but one rocket upon innocent civilians calls for a complete wiping out of the possibility of the second rocket being fired, period!

Israel is doing wrong by trusting in Quartet princes (Bush / Blair) instead of the God of Israel when it comes to their safety and security. (Psalms 146:3)

God's covenant of the Jews is everlasting (Psalms 105:8-10.) The proof of the land being part of that covenant is in the prophecy of return to it (Ezekiel 37:22-28) So how Israel deals with those nations (her enemies) that surround that "covenant land" under righteous Jewish sovereignty is based upon covenant words within the Bible itself. All the principles and guides are contained there within that Bible.

How will God judges the Palestinians, I don't know, but who are you or anyone else to say that God can't, won't, or shouldn't judge the evil Allah /demotic forces of the Palestinians "by the hand of Israel" as he promised to do with the Edomites in Ezekiel 25:14?

Kevin said...

Joe,
This conversation would have been so much more productive had you not devolved into ad hominem attacks like calling me a liberal or inferring that I think like Holocaust deniers. Consequently, this is my last post on the topic.

With regards to Israel being wrong in the past...I was not referring to their rejection of Jesus. Instead, I was referring to, among other examples, the books of Jeremiah and Israel where God exercised judgement upon Jews for their sin. Numerous other examples are in the Old Testament. Israel is not infallible.

My basic point is this: it is not unbiblical to question Israel's responses to Palestinian terrorist attacks.

I've never said that Israel's current response is wrong--I've merely questioned its justice and efficacy. You're a Zionist--I get that. You don't think Israel can ever be wrong (unless, of course, her policies disagree with your opinions). I, on the other hand, recognize that there is only One who is infallible. I support Israel and her right to defend herself. I am completely against Palestinian and Arab attacks on Israel. I see the danger Iran poses to Israel. I don't deny or minimize the Holocaust. I believe that we all should watch our hubris and sure-footedness lest we too stumble.

Blessings,
Kevin

Joe Whitehead said...

Kevin,
I know where you stand politically, but I'm not the only one who saw some of your views as leaning to the left on Israel's anti-terrorism policies, and not just by the ones who have posted a comment.

I believe I made it clear that I was in no way naming you as a Holocaust denier, however, my point being, that one must be carful not to fall into the same trap in theory and in principle as they do by minimizing Palestinian terrorism or by minimizing their society that promotes and celebrates any and all terrorism coming from their very society.

True, Israel is not infallible but the God of Israel who made an everlasting covenant with them is, of which He made them a promise that they would be His holy people and His inheritance. Considering this stated fact, I guess I just kind of like these people, as a people.

"My point" is that one should question the terrorists and the terror attacks themselves with the upmost desire to see the guilty punished and that the ability of such attacks be brought to an abrupt and finial end long before one starts to critique the responce of such a hostile and murderous action, most especially when it continues over a long period of time.

I look at most all situations on a spiritual level first, of what I see going on in the spirit realm. So yes, I'm a Zionist. I'm just don't limit myself of being only a political-minded one.

I don't see myself as being hubris, just unwilling to waver regardless of the world's norm or what's in Quartet style.

Shalom alaychem,
vashalom layesrael.
-Joe

ahmed said...

hope we can have a fair discussion.

do you believe the palestinians have a right to live in their land ??

if so, what soulution do you propose ,

- one united israel(arabs & israel living with equal rights) with land comprising of present day israel,gaza & palestine

- two states living side by side or

-Israel the superpower with land from river of egypt to river of euphrates ??

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
I would enjoy a "fair" discussion, but in order to do so we must first agree on some historical and undisputed facts:

1. The Romans "stole" Jewish land in 70ce and that stolen Jewish land consist of: "From the River to the Sea".
2. Today's name of "Palestine" derives from the re-naming of the land (including Jerusalem to the name to "Aelia Capitolina" by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in 135ce after the Bar Kachbah Jewish revolt (i32-135ce). It is well understood that Hadrian wanted the land to become non-Jewish in heritage in order to curb any future Jewish revolts against his Roman rule. Therefore he renamed the land after Israel's enemy the "Philistines".
3. The "Philistines" were of Mycenaean-Greece origin (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines ) that took up residence in the Gaza area "after" it was first promised by the God of Israel to the Israelite nation (the Jews - Joshua 15:20,47).
4. The Philistines spoke a non-Semitic language (certainly not Arabic), was of Greek origin, and never-ever have any connection with Judea and Samaria (today's so-called "West Bank")including its capital Jerusalem. And like all the rest of the peoples mentioned within the Hebrew Bible (except for the nation of Israel) the Philistine people over time lost their identity as a people and therefore do not exist as a people.
5. The so-called Palestinians of today use not a name of their own origins but of a borrowed name of an ancient people that no longer exist. They speak, read, and write and are named in "Arabic" which is a language of Arabia - not of ancient Israel.
6.There is no piece of land in all of the West Bank or Gaza that was not for centuries, a habitation of Jews, which occurred centuries before the advent of Islam itself.
7. The Jews today, read, write and speak the same language(Hebrew)and are even named after (in the same language) as their Jewish ancestors whom were owners of the same land. Not only this and more importantly, the Jews worship the same God as did their ancestors did in the same land - "From the River to the Sea". That is something no Palestinian anywhere in the ancient land of Israel can say.

So Ahmed, if you are willing to have a "fair" discussion based upon these historical and undisputed facts, then let's do it.

Your question:
"Do you believe the Palestinians have a right to live in their land?
My Answer:
What Palestinian land? Historically, there has never been a ruling government, king, people, or even a minted coin of a place called "Palestine". There has only been the reference that stuck to a body of land that again, Hadrian named in 135ce for the benefit of Roman rule.
So to answer your question directly, nobody has a right to the ancient land of Israel but the descendants of Jacob / Israel. Just because the Romans stole the land in 70ce doesn't mean a later conquering people (the Muslims) have a right to claim it - for the stolen land still needs to be returned to its rightful owner - the Jews! In this country, if stolen property is sold by the thief that had stolen it, the buyer doesn't get to keep the stolen property, even though he may have bought it in good faith. The property must be returned from whom it was originally stolen! So is it with the land of Israel - "From the River to the Sea".

Your question:
"what solution do you propose,
- one united Israel(Arabs & Israel living with equal rights) with land comprising of present day Israel,Gaza & Palestine
- two states living side by side or
-Israel the superpower with land from river of Egypt to river of Euphrates ?

My Answer:
Transfer! Israel needs to take back all of their land of their inheritance as the rightful and original owners and the ones who wish to oppose this needs to leave. Then there will be true peace - not until.
Everything east of the Jordan River (which includes actual ancient Israel tribal lands of Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh) can be what it already is now, "a land of Palestinians". Call it "Jordan" Trnasjordan, Palestine, whatever, I don't care. But the bottom line for peace is that Muslims need to live in Muslim countries not Jewish originally owned ones and vice-versa.

I do believe any so-called Palestinian (like my Bethlehem-born Palestinian hero, Walid Shoebat) who swears allegiance to the God of Israel (The God of the Land -from the River to the Sea") should be given full rights as any native born Seed of Jacob Israeli in accordance with the Hebrew scriptures: Ezekiel 47:22.

So if you're planning on calling me a racist, you first need to know a few things;
1. Like you, I'm a Gentile and not a Jew (though my faith would come under Judaism).
2. The Jewish people come in all nationalities, colors of skin - even from Arabia and other Muslims countries!
3.The "Chosen people" of Israel are of the seed of Jacob whose job it is to minister to all those (Gentiles) who chose to embrace their revealed God, that the earth (including all Arab tribes) be blessed. The future Temple in Jerusalem is for ALL nations:
"...for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for [All] people." - Isaiah 56:7

The ever-lasting promise to Israel does not include the Nile to the Euphrates river (as you mentioned) as was the influence during Solomon's reign. The land of promise includes only what the terrorists of the foreign Allah wants, including what is most cherished prize of all - the Temple Mount. Imagine that!

And for the sake of argument, the Muslim god "Allah" is not the same god as God of Israel - Elohim. Allah's believers "love death" as so animated in the hadith,and in words from Hamas and Hezbollah leaders. While the God of Israel declares all that hates Him (Elohim) "loves death":

"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me LOVE DEATH." Proverbs 8:36

Also, absolutely nothing is mentioned of the Arab peoples nor their prophet Mohammad when it comes to the End of Days concerning "the land". Only a Jewish king after the seed of David, leading his people in the land of all their ancient forefathers:

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever." - Ezekiel 37:22-25

Note: the promise to everlasting Israel (above) was present centuries (count them) centuries before Mohammad or Islam ever existed, and 13 centuries even more so than that, from the time any people calling themselves "Palestinians" ever existed!

Ahmed, I look forward to hearing from you in this "fair" discussion.
-Joe

ahmed said...

ur jumping into conclusions.
lets go little by little, otherwise the whole discussion will get jumbled up.

i dont think ur big list of points matters when it comes to religion.

from ur writing it seems u accept that anyone who truly believes in the true religion of Abraham has the right to live in Israel and is not based on racial grounds. If yes than we both are in agreemnet on that.

-do you believe the land of Israel was given to the seeds of Abraham ? (Genesis(15:7 & 18),(17:78))(deutronomy 11:1825)

-do you believe that God expelled the people when ever they violated the convenant ? which means there was a condition for living in the holy land.

-do you believe that the land which was given to Abraham alaihi salaam had inhabitants ? (Numbers 33:516)

ahmed said...

u said: I do believe any so-called Palestinian (like my Bethlehem-born Palestinian hero, Walid Shoebat) who swears allegiance to the God of Israel (The God of the Land -from the River to the Sea") should be given full rights as any native born Seed of Jacob Israeli in accordance with the Hebrew scriptures: Ezekiel 47:22.

i say:
does it include the muslims?

u said: Everything east of the Jordan River (which includes actual ancient Israel tribal lands of Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh) can be what it already is now, "a land of Palestinians". Call it "Jordan" Trnasjordan, Palestine, whatever, I don't care.

i say: so the zionists wont accept the present border and will only truly make peace after they take all the land which they claim is theirs alone , right??


u said: The ever-lasting promise to Israel does not include the Nile to the Euphrates river (as you mentioned) as was the influence during Solomon's reign

i say: i thought that would be the land which the true messiah will have to fulfill the prophesy. what then is the land required by the messiah to fulfill the prophesy??

Robert said...

Joe, you well answered the question of rights to the land from a historical and biblical standpoint. Let me mention a few spiritual items that I do not intend to be inflammatory but they will be taken that way.

Who has a right to the land? - the real question is "who's God is God? The God of the Palestinians or the God of the Jews?

The Jews are a tiny people and few. My numbers will not be exact but they make my point. There are maybe 12 million Jews in the world as opposed to 1 billion Muslims. Roughly 800 to 1 - yet they endure in spite of the fact
that the leaders of this billion, have actively sought their destruction for a long time. Miraculous!

The Jews have no sea of oil revenue, or natural resources, yet they are blessed with prosperity beyond any other nation I can think of. Miraculous!

The Jews in 1948 had no standing army, yet they defeated the combined militaries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria...maybe others. Miraculous!

This same attack by the Arab nations on Israel has happened many
times since 1948, always with the same outcome, utter defeat for the
attacking nations. Miraculous!

If Allah had power and Allah hates the Jews, why has Allah allowed
his people to be defeated over and over and over again the last 60 years?

If Allah has power, why has he allowed the scattered Jews to reform after almost 2,000 years in the heart of the Muslim world?

When the Arab nations descended on Israel - in 1948 and more recently,were the Israeli men hiding among their women and children to shoot at the invaders? Hardly and here is my point:

If Allah is on the side of the Palestinians, why do they have to hide themselves among their women and children, why do they use the helpless for shields? Does Allah inspire so little courage and confidence in his people?

In the bible, we have the story of Moses by himself, a shepherd defeating Pharaoh, we have the story of David, a boy by himself, slaying a giant and putting the armies of the Philistines to flight, we have the story of Elijah, by himself, defeating the 900 prophets of Baal, we have
the story of Samson, by himself, defeating 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass.

The Bible has Numerous other stories of ONE man with the
GOD of Israel, defeating hosts and armies and nations. Christianity has its dark spots, yet it is full of documented examples where ONE MAN went into heathen lands around the world, and was able to convert thousands and more,to Christianity, not by force, but by the godly life he lived. Do the
Muslims have any such examples? If not, where is Allah?

Do the Muslims have any such history of one man, (with Allah) standing up and defeating a thousand armed invaders? I haven't heard of any. It seems their 'victories' are always against the helpless and un-expecting such as
the twin towers or the restaurants and buses of Israel.It seems they must use women and children to covertly fight their battles.

In 1948, the Jewish men, (out on the battle front, not hiding in a
orphanage or a school or hospital I might add) were outnumbered 100 to 1, they were not armed nearly as well as the attackers, yet they utterly defeated the combined militaries of several Arab nations.

I say, it is obvious, the God of Israel is the only God. I say His book gives and promises the land to the Jews(as well as many other promises to us all).

I say all our debate is moot. God has said and will bring it to pass in spite of all efforts to the contrary, be they Muslim, Jew or Christian.

Joe Whitehead said...

Ahmed, I will try to go little by little but you pose several question that it is important to lay some background on in order to answer them properly.

You seem to be a reasonable enough, but I can tell when I see Islamic set-up questions. That's ok, because I enjoy answering them.

I would suggest that you ponder my answers on what the Hebrew Bible is actually is saying of which Islam claim's its foundation. Don't let an Imam explain them away using Islam (that came about centuries after the Hebrew Bible was complete) as a self-vindicated source.

You wrote: "I don't think your big list of points matters when it comes to religion."

My response: Israel (the seed of Jacob) have rights to "the land" both in political terms (that I mentioned in my first post to you) and more importantly, by divine right, which I will show through the Hebrew Torah.

You wrote:"From your writing it seems you accept that anyone who truly believes in the true religion of Abraham has the right to live in Israel and is not based on racial grounds."

My response: Only if they embrace "the covenant". The prophet Isaiah states, "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of MY COVENANT.Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer" - Isaiah 56:6-7

The God of Israel's covenant consist of three main parts 1.The seed of Isaac. 2. The Torah - how the seed of Isaac communes with the God of Israel. 3. The land of covenant and promise, "WHERE" the seed of Isaac communes with the God of Israel.

Even when Moses exited Egypt there were non-Israelites that exited with the Children of Israel (Exodus 12:37-38) but they embraced the covenant and the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48) which gave them rights to the "promised land" just as any Israelite!
But Ahmed, to the Muslim who does not embrace the Law of Moses and rejects that the covenant itself comes through Isaac but rather through Ishmael, automatically causes him to be rejected by the God of Israel to have any part in HIS covenant land!

You wrote: "Do you believe the land of Israel was given to the seeds of Abraham?"

My response: Your question implies by your usage of the word "seeds" that there are more than one chosen seed to come out of Avraham.
When we examine the story in Genesis 17 the announcement of the covenant came with two peoples (not just one) names being change in direct connection with the Avrahmic covenant.

It was God Himself that changed Sarah's name and announced that she would give birth to Avraham's seed > "And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her Genesis 17:15-16

Notice it was through "doubt" and not of faith of God's covenant plan that Avraham offered to God Ishmael to carry out God plan (verses 17,18)But God had an answer to Avraham's offer of Ishmael > "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT,AND WITH HIS SEED AFTER HIM.
And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
BUT MY COVENANT WILL I ESTABLISH WITH ISAAC, WHICH SARAH SHALL BEAR UNTO THEE..."

When Sarah wanted Hagar (who wasn't awarded a covenant-name-change) ousted from among their dwellings, it made Avraham upset. But look what God told Avraham: "Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; FOR IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." - -Genesis 21:12,13

In other words, Ishmael will be a "somebody notable" but Isaac will have a special spiritual calling.

Notice, how God makes the spiritual difference between Ishmael the oldest and the younger Isaac: "Take now thy son, THINE ONLY SON ISAAC, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah.."[Today's Temple Mount area]- Genesis 22:2

So Ahmed, when you suggest "seeds" of Avraham, note that God only sees "one" spiritual "seed" pertaining to His covenant.

You wrote: "Do you believe that God expelled the people when ever they violated the covenant? which means there was a condition for living in the holy land."

My response: Absolutely, Deuteronomy 28 reads like a 586bce Babylon novel. But Deuteronomy 30:3-6 reads like a "1948-War of Independence" novel! Why is it that Israel's enemies are quick to point out their curses but avoid completely acknowledging their promised blessings?
Also, I might add that the "New Covenant" mention by Jeremiah 31:31 and is depicted in Ezekiel 37, has nothing to do if Israel is holy or not before God returns them back to the land of their ancient forefathers, for it is after their return, God anoint Israel the nation with His Spirit - Ezekiel 37:21-23

You wrote: "Do you believe that the land which was given to Abraham alaihi salaam had inhabitants?" (Numbers 33:5-16)

My response: Absolutely, but they wasn't "Palestinians" Ahmed. There were people throughout the whole promised land - But they didn't have an everlasting covenant with God as did the seed of Jacob. Therefore they no longer exist as a people. Note: The Jews are the only nation of people from biblical times that is with us today as a nation of people that worship the same God, speak the same language, and because of the promised return...in the same land. This, if nothing else shows that the God of Israel and His ever-lasting covenant remains. There is not one Muslim nation in the entire world of nations that lay claim to such a as that!

You wrote: "So the Zionists won't accept the present border and will only truly make peace after they take all the land which they claim is theirs alone , right?"

My response: Actually, as we have seen in all of Israel's wars, it is the Palestinians along with the Muslim nations that surround Israel will only make peace after Israel through defensive-wars, takes all the land which "GOD" (not they) claims (as I pointed out with scriptures above)as theirs (Isaac / Jacob) alone.

You wrote: "I thought that would be the land which the true messiah will have to fulfill the prophesy. What then is the land required by the messiah to fulfill the prophesy?"

My response: I was going by the Ezekiel prophecies of chapters 47 and 48. In the Torah we read that the tribes Reuben, Gad, and Manasseh took up land that was actually outside what was promised to Israel (everything east of the Jordan was actually non-promised land). Therefore, Ezekiel's prophecy only addresses the spiritual application of the actually "promised land" that is Israel's spiritual inheritance and doesn't include (as far as I can tell from the prophecy) anything east of the Jordan River.

Of course, there are a lot more details in each of these answers which I will gladly give if you want me to. Let me know.

Also, Ahmed, if you have any questions on the Hebrew text being altered as the Koran claims (sura 2:75 / 6:115), let me know. That is another question I love to answer.

Thanks Ahmed.

-Joe

ahmed said...

@Robert

yes , ur question is good. the answer to them is very easy if you had come across quranic guidance.

the return of jews to the holy land in the last age is mentioned in the quran. it would only come about after gog and magog is released.

“But there is a ban on a town which We have destroyed: that they (the people of the town) shall not return (to reclaim that town as their own); until Gog and Magog are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly spread out in every direction (replicating themselves amongst all the peoples of the world).”
(Qur’an, al-Anbiyah, 21:95-96)

the present godless civilization is the result of gog and magog. It is because of gog and magog that israel is formed. the present day Israel was formed by a essentially godless movement.

as for ur questions regardin the battle , then my answer is that there are many. u could study about the "battle of badr" for example.

ahmed said...

@robert

when israel will take control of greater land in the future with amazing brilliance and rule the world from jerusalem with a man proclaiming to be the messiah, the muslims will not be suprised by it or be deceived by it.

because it is the false messiah also know as anti christ. it is only then that the true messiah descends and kills the false messiah and rules the world from jerusalem.

ahmed said...

@joe

yes we are getting to the main problem.
the exclusive right which torah claims that Isaac alaihi salaam had while Ismail alaihi salaam did not have while both where the son of Abraham. i havent seen any just reason for that.

ill explain them more in my next post

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
You have me starching my head as to which of the four schools of law you belong? I'm guessing of Abu Hanifa? Obviously you're not a Wahhabist which is probably why I'm starting to like you.

I haven't heard nowhere in all my studies of Islam that interpretation that you gave Robert of sura 21:95,96. That's why I'm wondering "what school of Islamic law and thought does that come from?

The mainstream interpretation is that its talking about the ones who die cannot return to this present world.

I do remember hearing in a lecture that Ibn Taymiyyah of all people, believed and was quoted as saying that during the Great Age to come (Messianic Age for Jews) that the world would be governed from Jerusalem and instead of Mecca.

As to the different choosing between Ishmael and Isaac, (of which I'll wait for more of your information) I can say that such selective choosing by God goes back even farther and long after Ishmael and Isaac.

A lot of it has to do with not only Avraham's seed (loins) but his seed bearer - Sarah who also had to be chosen, and of which God saw it appropriate to change her name along with Avraham. This also fits well as you know, with the Christian and Islamic doctrines concerning "Mary" being a special selected "chosen vessel" for Jesus.

With some traditional Judaism backing (of which my Christian friend Robert won't agree with)I believe that Cain and Abel had the same mother, but not the same father, which caused a difference in the makeup of his spirit and the way he sacrificed, and God's rejection of it. A fascinating book on this subject is "The Beast that Crouches at the Door" by Rabbi David Fohrman.

The Torah says of Ishmael: "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." -Genesis 16:12

This biblical description of Ishmael fits "radical Islam" to a tee. Does it not? No joking meant, but it takes a "wild man" to suicide himself for his god!

Because of Ishmael's wild nature, that was past unto him via Hagar, God would choose another seed of Avraham (and using a old-age miracle to do it) to be His spiritual heir. But because He loved Avraham so much, He would greatly bless his offspring Ishmael as well, but in a different way. Perhaps by most of the entire world oil supply?

irfan said...

i follow the traditional sunni-sufi and not wahhabi.

you wouldnt find the same interpretation in old islamic books since only when such a time arrives would the real meaning be understood.

Muhammed Iqbal has mentioned this in his poem :
The hordes of Gog and Magog, Have all been released;
The Muslim can see with his eyes, The meaning of yansiloon.

yansiloon is the word in the end of 21:96

if interested than you can learn more from here:
http://www.imranhosein.org/books.html

u said: The mainstream interpretation is that its talking about the ones who die cannot return to this present world.

i say: this meaning doesnt fit. how would they rise after gog and magog are released?
the world doesnt end after gog and magog are released and even after their killed.

-----------

i would like to see more on ur understanding of why Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam,the seed of Abraham, ill not be included in this covenant even though Ishmaeel alaihi salaam follows the religion of Abraham alaihi salaam.

what is the just reason for such an exclusion even though deuteronomy 21:16 speaks a entirely different tone.

we do not find in the book of Genesis, Numbers and Deuteronomy any exclusion of Ismaelites.


u said:
The Torah says of Ishmael: "And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." -Genesis 16:12

i say: this is something which muslims find disturbing. we also find some translated this with an addition of "ass" or "donkey". how will a blessed person and who will have a great nation(Genesis 17:19-21) be excluded from the covenant and be called an "ass". Intrestingly we find that a "stiff necked people" has unconditional right to the holy land(Deuteronomy9:6).

more interesting is that a Islamic scholar who lived around 700 yrs ago mentioning of the same prophesy in this manner:

Ibn kathir stories of the Prophet :
chapter: Sayyidina Ibrahim
sub heading: The birth of Ismail to Hajrah

According to the people of the Book, ............................... He foretold her that she would give birth to a son whom she should name Ismail. She thanked Allah for that for the angel had predicted that her son would be a strong man, his hand will be against everyone and their hands will be against him and he will possess all the lands of his brothers.

The condition of inheritance as per the Quran was righteousnes.

“And We declared in the Zabur (i.e., the Psalms) which followed (Our declaration in) the Zikr (i.e., the Torah) that it is (only) those servants of Mine who are righteous in their conduct who would inherit the (Holy) Land.” (Qur’an, al-Anbiyah, 21:105)

and such is mentioned in them:

“The righteous shall inherit the (Holy) Land, and dwell therein forever (i.e. provided that they remain righteous).” (Psalm, 37:29)

Also see (Psalm, 25:12-14),(Psalm, 37:11) and (Matthew, 5:5)

------


u said:
A lot of it has to do with not only Avraham's seed (loins) but his seed bearer
i say:
i believe it was changed from a descent which is patrilineal and converted to matrilineal descent for the resulting benefits.

and the result was that Lord chose to send the messiah though a virgin mother.

But the Quran teaches that they instead declared the baby to be bastard and that Mary (A.S) had committed fornication. thus the evil seed which was planted became for them an evil tree.

-------------

u said :
This biblical description of Ishmael fits "radical Islam" to a tee. Does it not? No joking meant, but it takes a "wild man" to suicide himself for his god!

i say:
the good news of the birth of Ishmaeel alaihi salaam was :

SO WE GAVE HIM (Abraham) THE GOOD NEWS OF A SON READY TO SUFFER AND FORBEAR. Holy Qur'an 37:101

The good news of the birth of his second son Ishaaq Alaihi salaam is announced as:

THE ANGELS SAID "FEAR NOT! WE GIVE THEE TIDINGS OF A SON ENDOWED WITH WISDOM". Holy Qur'an 15:53

irfan said...

by the way i follow the shafi school of law.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Irfan:
I almost asked if you were Sufi in my last post. Like Kabbalah Judaism, I know little about Sufi-Islam. But just from the positive things Mark A. Gabriel (a former professor in Islamic History at Al-Azhar University - who became a Christian) has stated in his books about Sufism, I have labeled Sufism in my mind as "the best" sect in Islam of which have no part of the "global-jihad" movement.

I do have a book entitled, "The Shambhala Guide to Sufism" by Carl W. Ernst ph.D. that I plan (even more so now) to go through. However, as you know, Sufism is very small minority in the world of Islam (about 5%).When I go strong against Islam in my blogs, it is because I'm going after the other 95%. I just wish all of Islam (especially the Palestinians) could be Sufi.

But their is a spiritual reason as to why they are not, and that brings us back to "the covenant" and the land issue.

You wrote: "I would like to see more on your understanding of why Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam,the seed of Abraham, will not be included in this covenant even though Ishmaeel alaihi salaam, follows the religion of Abraham alaihi salaam.

God, is simply a God of selection that is best designed for its purpose. The Levitical priesthood could only consist of priests from the tribe of Levi. No matter how much a Jew from the tribe of, let's say, Benyamin wanted to obtain that position, it was forbidden to him to do so.

Likewise, regardless of how much of Levite wanted to hold the office of High Priest, he could not do so unless he was not only a descendant of Levi but of Arron as well. His connection to Levi wasn't enough. He had to be of Arron as well.

We find this selection (a honing- down so to speak)throughout the Hebrew Bible. The messiah can only come through the tribe of Judah, to hone further...through David (II Chronicles 21:7) and to hone even further...through Solomon (II Samuel 7:13-16). So regardless of how "Absalom" fit the criteria of Psalms 132:11, Absalom was simply not chosen of God to build His temple not to be king of Israel. His attempt to force his way in so to speak, became disastrous for him. This is some the Ishmaelites of today needs to consider when forcing the issue and laying claim to Israel's covenant land.

Israel is to be a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6)unto which the nations will seek (Zechariah 8:23).

To try forcing Ishmael (though a seed of Avraham) into the covenant that God has chosen Isaac for, would be like forcing a Benjamite into performing the Levitical priestly duties.

One of the reasons among many that God totally rejected Herod's temple (which was doomed from the get-go)in 70ce, was because Herod as king (though he married into Judah) was not of the seed of David, and the preforming priests of the temple were not of Levitical descent, but as Josephus tells us, they were hand-picked by Herod himself.

You wrote: "We do not find in the book of Genesis, Numbers and Deuteronomy any exclusion of Ismaelites."

My response: Neither do we find an "acceptance" into the covenant. The Torah is very detailed about the covenant and to whom it "only" pertains;
To Avraham: Genesis 17:5-8
To Isaac: Genesis 26:1-4
To Jacob: Genesis 35:10-12

The prophet David made an offering unto the Lord with these words:
"O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant. - I Chronicles 16:13-17

This is again confirmed in the Book of Psalms:
"He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant" -Psalms 105:8-10

Remembering what I was saying how Avraham's spiritual seed had to come through Sarah (who also received a special name-change from God) look at the words of the prophet Isaiah and how he addresses the people of Israel centuries after the Isaac's lifetime:"Look unto "Abraham" your father, and unto "Sarah" that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him". -Isaiah 51:2
By mentioning Sarah, the prophet was urging Israel to look back (to become non-stiffneked) at his special spiritual covenant that no other nation had.

The covenant to Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob, doesn't change. For as the scripture plainly state above, the covenant is forever - even unto a thousand generations.

All throughout the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings of the Bible, the God of Israel addresses His chosen Israel, not other people. When other nations are mentioned it is in relation of how they relate to Israel His chosen. When other nations bless Israel, then they are in returned blessed, fulfilling the prophecy: "How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel...Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee. -Numbers 24:5,9

As for Ishmael being seen as a wild-ass, I see the scripture calling him more as a "rebel" or "radical" in nature, not to associate him as an animal!
When I read the words,"...his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him" I can't help but see global-jihad all through it.

Is it such a stretch to say that the biblical account of the battle between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-harb could be summed up with the words:
"His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him"?

Even though Israel was considered a "stiffnecked people" (of which in my opinion "liberal Israel" still is) it should be remembered that with the covenant comes the promise that they will come to the acknowledgment of the Gentiles, as God holy nation for the benefit of all the nations - including the Islamic ones:

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the Gentiles shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. - Ezekiel 37:25-28

ahmed said...

ur misinformed regarding sufism. sufism is not a sect, it is the spiritual part of islam also known as ihsan or tassawuf. the reason why i mentioned "sunni sufi" is because the wahabi have rejected such a branch in islam and hence the traditional sunni (the majority sect) you will see all over the world are more known as sunni-sufies today. but that doesnt make me a sufi because i havent gone and taken initiation to a particular sufi order whos teacher will guide in our spiritaul development. it is best to stick to muslim authored books rather than orientalist work on sufism , because most of their understanding on sufism ,its origin etc is wrong.

it is also wrong to say that they have no part in jihad. many of the movement had sufi founders but today the wahabi sect has crept into and taken control of the physical jihad movements and hence we find some misguided unislmaic responses from their side.

--------

i think the issue is more on why Ishmaeel alaihi salaam was excluded from the covenant.

Muslims believe the the holy land is for anyone who follows the true religion of Abraham Alaihi salaam.

And Ishmaeel alaihi salaam did follow the true religion of Abraham. muslims dont deny Isaaq Alaihi salaam to be excluded from the covenant nor do we believe that the covenant is based on race or being a seed of someone but rather it is about following the true religion of Abraham. anyone who violates the religion of abraham will be expelled or destroyed or punished by the Lord of Abraham.

It will be also good to remember the present israel was delivered by a godless movement. so it is easy to understand where the present israel is heading towards.

God willing i will reply to many of the points you made in my next post.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmen,
A "branch" of Islam is no doubt a better word than "sect". I used the word "sect" as meaning a "section" of people that is distinguished from those, shall I say, have less of an acceptance of a certain branch, than from others.

What our discussion boils down to is what one accepts as his/her "holy book" - the Bible or the Koran. Was it Isaac that God told Avraham to sacrifice as Genesis 22:2 tells us, or was it Ishmael as the Koran tells us in sura 37:102? We can't have it both ways. One has to be the Word of God and the other is simply not the word of God!

"All" (not just parts) of the Torah, the Hebrew Prophets, and all the of Writings of the Bible have a connected tie-post that is rooted and grounded on the covenant of "Avraham-Isaac-Jacob". There is no portion of scripture in all the Hebrew Bible that even comes close to going outside that established Isaac-connected covenant boundary.

It is interesting to note that not one of God's prophets ever came to any other people (including the Ishmaelites) accept the chosen Jews.

Moses himself became a "known established prophet by the Avraham-Isaac-Jocab covenant, for this is what he himself wrote of:
"These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel...Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them." - Deuteronomy 1:1,8

One must wonder why wasn't Moses a prophet to the Ishmaelites as well if Ishmael was equal in God spiritual callings as a people? Why, during the ancient times, do we have only the Jews expressing God's attributes?

Even Isa's (Jesus) whole ministry was possible because of the chosen Isaac-seed factor (Matthew 15:24). It was because of the Maccabee "Zionist" Revolt that paved the way for Jesus to have a ministry among the people he himself considered "chosen" (St.Matthew 23:2 / St. John 4:22).

The chosen seed of Isaac has been established for literally millenias before Islam was ever established, during which there was never a people who argued that Ishmael was the sacrifice on Moriah (Gen. 22:2)or even that he has a "spiritual significance" among the peoples of the world, especially among the Hebrew people.

If the Torah and therefore the rest of the Hebrew Bible was altered as the Koran claims,(sura 2: 75-79) why and when was it altered? No alterations could have come as a result to the advent of Islam (as mainstream Islam claims) because we have ancient copies like that of the Septuagint and others that out-date the rise of Islam not by months or years, but by actual centuries!

Jesus (being considered a prophet of Islam)who lived in the first century between the time of the Septuagint Greek translation (250bce) and the third century manuscripts (The Codex Sinaitcus, Codex Vaticanus, and Codex Alexaurinus -300ce (both before Islam) never, one time, did Jesus mention that of all the scriptures he in fact quoted from throughout his entire ministry, was in any of it, in any way, altered. I'm sure he didn't mean to say, "Moses wrote of me in an altered sort of way" - St. John 5:46

Furthermore, if Ishmael was the one who was offered in Avraham's great test on Moriah, why don't we have a Bible written of God-sent prophets coming from the Ishmaelites? Why is it that the son (according to the Koran) NOT set for sacrifice as Avraham's greatly beloved, the one whoes offspring is the ones coming up with the Holy Bible? Why isn't there an Ishmaelite produced Holy Bible like what came out of the Hebrews?

The Hebrew prophets: Dawud, IIyas, Uzair, Al-Yash'a, Ishaq, Ya'qub, Ayyub, Yumus, Musa, Sulaiman, and Zakariyya and others, have there mention in Koran. Yet all of these men are noted as holy men and prophets of God based upon the chosen-seed of Isaac long before Islam. And in all there writings do they ever venture outside the set foundation of the Avraham- Isaac-Jacob covenant - not even once!

So Ahmen, the Hebrew Bible can't be just partially altered and some be true. Since it is totally based upon the seed-choosing of Isaac (and therefore Jacob / Israel) all of it (100%) would have to be completely false. So then how would 6th.century CE Islam find its very base to begin with?

To me, Islam / Koran seeks to redefine the already proven Bible (be it a Hebrew originated one)for itself and use the Hebrew prophets "name" and certainly not their words and message (which is Isaac-chosen based) as base to do so.

An Ishmaelite today, can be blessed by the God of Avraham if he/she abides by what God has provided in the words of His Hebrew prophets that we see in the Hebrew Bible (Genesis 12:3 / Numbers 24:5,9) or he/she can take a "alternate path" that is in direct disagreement with God's provided way and end up cursing God's actual choosing: sura 5:60 / 7:166

You wrote: "It will be also good to remember the present Israel was delivered by a godless movement. So it is easy to understand where the present Israel is heading towards."

My response:
I agree about the godless movement part, but that godless movement was called, "the Holocaust" which was a very spiritual event, for it was the very source that pushed the secular Jews to their spiritual homeland where the God of Israel has promised to anoint them as a nation. - Ezekiel 37:21-28
That is where Israel "is promised" by the prophet Ezekiel to be headed.

There were more Jews living in Jerusalem in 1860 than any other people which was long before Herzl's Zionism movement and the thought of statehood ever began.

And if you stop and think about it, it was Israel's close companion with their "scriptures" (their very identifying source as a people) that allowed them to seek-out their ancient homeland to begin with. God knows the Crusaders tried to murder it out of them all throughout the Dark Ages, not to mention the Nazis in recent decades, and today's jihad movements of Hamas and Hezbollah.

ahmed said...

You wrote:
God, is simply a God of selection that is best designed for its purpose. The Levitical priesthood could only consist of priests from the tribe of Levi...................This is some the Ishmaelites of today needs to consider when forcing the issue and laying claim to Israel's covenant land.

I say:
But when it comes down to the issue of holy land the condition is:

“The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever.”
(Psalm 37:29)

“Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws… And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you” (Lev. 18:24-28).

If you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country… The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven… You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. (Deut. 28:15-16, 25, 63-64)

“'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you…shed blood, should you then possess the land? You rely on your sword, you do detestable things…Should you then possess the land?…I will make the land a desolate waste, and her proud strength will come to an end” (Ezek. 33:25–29)

what seed he belongs too does not matter when it comes to the holy land. It about righteousness and following the true religion of abraham and not on a racial selection for domiation.
No proof is there of Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam being unrightoeus or defiling the land.

And all the above completely contridicts:

“Know therefore that it is not for thy righteousness that the Lord thy God giveth thee this good land to possess it; for thou art a stiff-necked people.” (Deuteronomy 9:6)

If the Deu 9:6 is true, why then would being "wild" matter?

Dueteronomy 9 cotinues explaing:
"you have been REBELLIOUS against the LORD" and " in Horeb you provoked the LORD to WRATH".

I dont see stiff necked as being "liberal", rather i see it is as pride and supremist thoughts.

Why should a people who are "treacherous" and a "rebel from birth"(Isiah 48:6-9) have unconditional right to the holy land ?

--------------------------

You wrote:
Neither do we find an "acceptance" into the covenant

Response:
Genesis 17 teaches that the "the sign of the covenant " is to "circumcise the flesh of your foreskin" and that Lord's "Covenant be marked in your flesh as an everlasting pact".

We also know from genesis 17:
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

This is clear proof that Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam was part of the covenant. The arabs even before the arrival of islam had practised circumsision and so do the muslims today. It also shows the human intervention in Genesis 17:21.


Regarding Ishmaeel alaihi salaam , Lord says

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have BLESSED him,

And regarding the blessed, Lord says:

“For such as be BLESSED of Him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of Him shall be cut off.” (Psalm 37:22)

--------------------------

You wrote:
The Torah is very detailed about the covenant and to whom it "only" pertains;
To Avraham: Genesis 17:5-8
To Isaac: Genesis 26:1-4
To Jacob: Genesis 35:10-12

Response: i dont deny Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob (may peace be on all of them) are part of the covenant. They all where righteous and followed the true religion of Abraham. But i dont see "ONLY" in any of them. Same response regarding I Chronicles 16:13-17 And Psalms 105:8-10
-----------------------------

U wrote:
look at the words of the prophet Isaiah and how he addresses the people of Israel centuries after the Isaac's lifetime:"Look unto "Abraham" your father, and unto "Sarah" that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him". -Isaiah 51:2

Response:
darby's translation is :
Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bore you; for I called him when he was alone, and blessed him, and multiplied him.


-----------------------

U wrote:
The covenant to Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob, doesn't change. For as the scripture plainly state above, the covenant is forever - even unto a thousand generations.

I say:
On the condition that they are rightoeus and follow the true religion of Abraham as the scripture shows. They where already twice expelled(by babylonians and romans) from the land when they violated the religion of Abraham.

----------------------------

U wrote:
All throughout the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings of the Bible, the God of Israel addresses His chosen Israel, not other people. When other nations are mentioned it is in relation of how they relate to Israel His chosen.

I say:
This is because the Prophets sent to Banu Israil were sent only for the Banu Israil. The message was for banu israil.

According to Islam more than 1lakh Prophets where sent by God to every nation. But the last Prophet , from the seed of Abraham A.S , Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him) was sent as a seal of the Prophets and the message was for all nations.

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U wrote:
As for Ishmael being seen as a wild-ass, I see the scripture calling him more as a "rebel" or "radical" in nature, not to associate him as an animal!

I say:
I believe the "wild ass" was a later add-on to reject the Prophet that came from the seed of Ishmaeel.

Neither do i see "wild ass" as a rebel or radical.

BBE(christian) translated it as:
And he will be like a mountain ass among men;

Instead of "wild", we have "mountain".

-----------------------

You wrote:
When I read the words,"...his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him" I can't help but see global-jihad all through it.
Is it such a stretch to say that the biblical account of the battle between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-harb could be summed up with the words:
"His hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him"?

Response:
It could be refering to the following:

Prophet Muhammed(may peace be upon him) said:
'O Thawban, what will you do when the nations call one another to invade you as people call one another to come and eat from one bowl?' Thawban said,' May my father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Is it because we are so few?' The Prophet (s) said,' No, on that day you will be many, but Allah will put weakness in your hearts.' The people asked,'What is that weakness, O Messenger of Allah?' He said,' It is love for this world and dislike of fighting.'"

And what Quran mentions regarding Ishmaeel:
SO WE GAVE HIM (Abraham) THE GOOD NEWS OF A SON READY TO SUFFER AND FORBEAR.
Qur'an 37:101

----------------------------

U wrote:
Even though Israel was considered a "stiffnecked people" (of which in my opinion "liberal Israel" still is) it should be remembered that with the covenant comes the promise that they will come to the acknowledgment of the Gentiles, as God holy nation for the benefit of all the nations - including the Islamic ones:
..................... Gentiles shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. - Ezekiel 37:25-28

I say:
again the condition is to follow the religion of Abraham and not a racial domination. It is only the true religion of Abraham which will survive in the holy land.

It will be good to ponder over the fact the Islam ruled the holy land for more than 1200 yrs.

---------------

U wrote:
But look what God told Avraham: "Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; FOR IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed." - -Genesis 21:12,13

In other words, Ishmael will be a "somebody notable" but Isaac will have a special spiritual calling.

I say:
i dont find anything in the above to suggest the meaning you gave. And i dont believe God will make "great nation"(Genesis 17:20) out off somone who does not follow the religion of Abraham and who will be a "wild donkey".

------------------------------

You wrote:
Notice, how God makes the spiritual difference between Ishmael the oldest and the younger Isaac: "Take now thy son, THINE ONLY SON ISAAC, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah.."[Today's Temple Mount area]- Genesis 22:2

Response:
Again "spiritual" difference is only a claim. It mentions "only son ISAAC" because of human itervention.

Check the various translations:

Translation and Commentary of the Pentateuch and Haftorahs used by Conservative Judaism and edited by J.H. Hertz:

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him: “Abraham”; and he said: “Here am I.” And He said: “Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”
(Genesis: - 22:1-2)


The christian ASV:

Genesis 22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah. And offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Now let us look at the translation of the verses in the Modern Commentary of the Torah edited by W. Günter Plaut, - a commentary used by Reform Judaism:


“Sometime afterward, God put Abraham to the test. He said to him: “Abraham . . . take your son, your favored one, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering . .”
(Genesis: -22:12)

Finally let us see how the Catholics translate this verse in the New American Bible For Catholics (with revised New Testament and revised Book of Psalms):

“Sometime after these events, God put Abraham to the test. He called to him, “Abraham!” “Ready!” he replied. Then God said: “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you will offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you.”
(Genesis: -22:1-2)

Please note how the Günter Plaut translation uses the term “your favored one”, and the Catholics use “your only one” rather than the more accurate but problematic translation, “your only son”. It is problematic because at no time whatsoever was Isaac ever an only son. It is only Ishmael (s) who ever had the status of being an only son to Abraham (s). It would appear from the above that the process of changing the Torah during translations is still going on to this day! But the fact that the reference to only son has survived indicates that the original Torah named Ishmael (s) as the child of the sacrifice.

------------------------------

You wrote:
But Ahmed, to the Muslim who does not embrace the Law of Moses and rejects that the covenant itself comes through Isaac but rather through Ishmael, automatically causes him to be rejected by the God of Israel to have any part in HIS covenant land!

Response:
Muslims dont reject the covenant coming through Isaac Alaihi salaam. We believe that the Ishmaeel alaihi salaam and Isaac alaihi salaam where both included in the covenant. I believe it is the Later jews who changed this to a Israelite only, so that they could reject the Arabian Prophet that rose from the seed of Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmen,
What you are doing in your last post is picking and choosing certain verses from the Hebrew scriptures, taking them out of the main message (out of context)and applying an Islamic idea / doctrine on them, and ignoring everything else the Hebrew scriptures states on the subject to the point of calling them an "addition" - an idea of the Koran.

For example, you quoted Psalms 37:29, but refuse the part of the “same message” that reads : “O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen…He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an EVERLASTING COVENANT: Saying, Unto thee will I WILL GIVE THE LAND OF CANAAN THE LOT OF YOUR INHERITANCE.”
Psalms 105: 6, 8-11

In quoting Psalms 37:29 you have avoided the context of this psalm of David. Two verses on down (verse 31) while still on the subject of “the righteous” that is to inherit the land forever, David says, “The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.” Since we know what “land” he talking about in verse 29, we should know what “law” David is talking about two verses later while still on the same subject. If there is any questions on this we can read all of the chapter of Psalms 119, or just read Psalms 78:5-6 for a clear confirmation:
“For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a [law] in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children”

Now let ask the question, Do the Muslims of the world keep Torah (the Law of Moses) that they may fit the definition of who is righteous as according to David the Psalmist in Psalms 37:29? More importantly, what people is promised to keep the law of Moses in the land, fulfilling the everlasting covenant in Ezekiel 37:21-24,28?
"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: THEY SHALL ALSO WALK IN MY JUDGMENTS, AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES, AND DO THEM.And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

Incidentally, the very next verse after 31 (describing those who keep the law of Moses as the righteous) says of the wicked: "The wicked watcheth the righteous [the Torah of Moses keepers] and seeketh to slay him.I see the vindication of this verse in today's Kassam rocket firings into Israel and in the mindset of the infamous sahih (reliable)Bukhari hadith, that says, at the end of days the stones will cry out to the Muslim, "there is a Jew (a Moses-law keeper) hiding behind me come kill (murder) him."

Ahmed, you are good at quoting Ezekiel 33:25-29 as you did on your last post, but can you quotes words from Ezekiel three chapters later:
"Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, AND YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, AND DO THEM. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses."

Notice Ahmen, that the righteousness prophesied is that Israel will keep the law of Moses (the very opposite of what they were judged out of the land for)!
Again, does the Muslims whom you claim follow the Avraham's religion, keep the Law of Moses?
They may not eat pork, but do they refrain from working on the Sabbath (7th. day of the week) as Isaiah 56:6-7 states:" to be his servants, every one that KEEPETH THE SABBATH FROM POLLUTING IT, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer"

Do the Muslims circumcise on the EIGHTH day of life as the Torah teaches or do they circumcise when teenagers?
"And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. - Leviticus 12:3

When you read this, you are going to want to express all that the Jews "don't" do according to the law in order to somehow inject an Islamic argument,but that's not the point! The point is what God's calls "righteousness":
"And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:25

You wrote:"No proof is there of Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam being unrightoeus or defiling the land."

My response: To begin with, they have no covenant, they therefore have no law of Moses to break as Israel did. They wasn't even in the game so to speak. That's like saying Saudi Arabia "never lost" an Olympic hockey game - while reason being, they never played in one!

However, if you want to get technical about it, Esau (who like Ishmael was not part of the covenant - see Malachi 1:2-3) married both Ishmael's daughters (Gen 28:9 / Gen. 36:3) and dwelt in Seir (Gen.32:3). It is the non-covenant land of Seir - east of the Jordan River in today's Muslim-Jordan that the prophet Ezekiel prophesies against:
" Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it, And say unto it, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate. I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD. Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end: Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: since thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee." - Ezekiel 35:2-6

Notice Ahmed, the God of Israel will be against the inhabitants of Seir because of their "perpetual hatred" against the Jews! What will I find if I were to walk down the streets of Jenin, Ramallah, Nabalus, or anywhere in Gaza? Would I fnd that "perpetual hatred" for the Jewish people the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel was talking about? You know I would.

I wonder want religion these people of Seir will be believing? Will they be believing in a prophet that had entire Banu Qurayza of Yithrib murdered?

You wrote: "What seed he belongs too does not matter when it comes to the holy land. It about righteousness and following the true religion of Abraham and not on a racial selection for domination."

My response:
That was the very question Avraham ask God - "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!" - Genesis 17:18
But God had an answer which you are avoiding Ahmen: "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. - Genesis 17:19
(No mention of "Ishmael" in that revealing verse!)

One under the influence of Islam can try to reason for Ishmael's case left and right, but the bottom line is, God (whether we accept it or not) chose Isaac and Isaac alone. Nowhere in all of the Torah do we find where Ishmael is brought into the covenant. It's simply not there. If it is, copy and paste my last statement back to me along with the verse showing Ishmael is part of the "covenant calling" of Avraham as is Isaac / Jacob.

Ahmed, why did you quote Deuteronomy 9:6 without quoting the verse right above it?
Let's look at Deuteronomy 9:5-6 the two verses together:
"Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and THAT HE MAY PERFORM THE WORD WHICH THE LORD SWEAR UNTO THEY FATHERS, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB.
Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people."

Deuteronomy 9:5-6 is as Ezekiel promises in Ezekiel 36 (quoted above) Israel's righteousness has nothing to do with it. God acts in Israel's favor because of the covenant of their fathers and His name sake to those fathers, not whether or not Israel breaks with God. It is true Israel will fare better when they do obey God (through the Law of Moses) but look at the words of Jeremiah:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

Wow, did you catch that last part of "the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever"?

You wrote: "If the Deut. 9:6 is true, why then would being "wild" matter?

My response: It's all about whom God has called. The "wild" part of Ishmael is is only a aftermath of the calling.

Ahmed, when you refer to Isaiah 48:6-9 read it on down to at least to verse 12, and you will discover Isaiah reconfirming what Iv'e just stated prior. In fact, if you get the chance, all of Isaiah chapters 41 - 66 are of Israel's redemption, give it a good read.

You wrote:" Genesis 17 teaches that the "the sign of the covenant " is to "circumcise the flesh of your foreskin" and that Lord's "Covenant be marked in your flesh as an everlasting pact".

My response: All the males of Avraham's house was circumcised, not just Ishamael and Avraham alone. Were they all part of the Avrahamic covenant too? I think not: "And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. - Genesis 17:23

You wrote:"Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. This is clear proof that Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam was part of the covenant. The arabs even before the arrival of islam had practised circumsision and so do the muslims today.

My response: No it doesn't. All the servants of Avraham's house was likewise circumcised that same day as well - "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. AND ALL ["va-col" in Hebrew -a continuance of the presending verse] the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. -Gen.17:26,27

This is why the Muslims circumcise teenagers to this day, because of this verse. However, that age like Avraham's at 99 years, was not part of the Isaac-only covenant that was to be done on the eighth day of life. This actually shows, if nothing else, that Ishmael doesn't have a place in the spiritual calling of a nation that Isaac / Jacob has.

You wrote: "Regarding Ishmaeel alaihi salaam , Lord says
Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have BLESSED him,
And regarding the blessed, Lord says:“For such as be BLESSED of Him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of Him shall be cut off.” (Psalm 37:22)

My response:
The blessing of Ishmael is not to make him part of the covenant as Genesis 17:21 plainly indicates. Ishmael's blessing (of a different kind) is spelled out in the actual verse itself. He will be fruitful (as Muslims are today (50 plus kids from some of - from four ever pregnant wives)as is bin Laden. And have twelve princes. But none of this has to do with have a stake of the covenant. Again, the blessing in Psalms 37:22 has to do with the B blessing of Israel obeying the Law of Moses, of which they are promised to do as the scriptures point out above.

You wrote:" I dont deny Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob (may peace be on all of them) are part of the covenant. They all where righteous and followed the true religion of Abraham. But I dont see "ONLY" in any of them. Same response regarding I Chronicles 16:13-17 And Psalms 105:8-10

My response: You don't see the "only" in them because you fail to see the whole (only) context of Genesis 17:15-21.

You wrote:"On the condition that they are rightoeus and follow the true religion of Abraham as the scripture shows. They where already twice expelled(by babylonians and romans) from the land when they violated the religion of Abraham."

My response: You keep mentioning the "religion of Abraham". It is the breaking the "Law of Moses" (something foreign to Muslims) that got them booted out of the land. But as noted above, Israel (His Chosen) will be not only brought back to the land, but receive the spirit of obedience by God's own promise.

You wrote: "This is because the Prophets sent to Banu Israil were sent only for the Banu Israil. The message was for banu Israil. According to Islam more than 1lakh Prophets where sent by God to every nation. But the last Prophet ,from the seed of Abraham A.S , Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him) was sent as a seal of the Prophets and the message was for all nations.

My response: The point being, that no Ishmeelite people had their own prophet throughout the entire Biblical history! Why did God only use Hebrew prophets (from Isaac/ Jacob - the stiffneaked ones) to carry out His holy mission to the nations?
"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:4-5

You wrote:"I believe the "wild ass" was a later add-on to reject the Prophet that came from the seed of Ishmaeel."

My response: If that is indeed the case, then why is this mentioned in the Septuagint from 250bce and in all the ancient codex copies, centuries before Mohammad? Any claim can be made, but where is the proof of such a claim? Furthermore, if that was the main reason, then the whole of the Bible would be an addition of God know what? Especially, Genesis 17:15-21.

You wrote: "Again the condition is to follow the religion of Abraham and not a racial domination. It is only the true religion of Abraham which will survive in the holy land. It will be good to ponder over the fact the Islam ruled the holy land for more than 1200 yrs.

My response: It will be "the Law of Moses" that will forever be placed in the Holy Land:
"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. - Isaiah 2:3

"And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. -Micah 4:2

Then should we ponder that the Romans also ruled the Holy Land for many centuries even during the time of Jesus (consider a prophet of Islam). Is that a vindication that the Romans were as you say, "of the religion of Avraham"?

You wrote:"Now let us look at the translation of the verses in the Modern Commentary of the Torah edited by W. Günter Plaut, - a commentary used by Reform Judaism:
“Sometime afterward, God put Abraham to the test. He said to him: “Abraham . . . take your son, your favored one, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering . .”(Genesis: -22:12

My response: Ahmed, I know Biblical Hebrew. I know what the word "ya-cheed-chah" means. The root word "ya-cheed" can mean, "only" "alone" or "forsaken - as in being alone". The Chah suffix at the end of the root means "your". Therefore, the word "ya-cheed-chah" can only mean, your-only, your-alone, your- forsakeness. The Hebrew word for "favorite" is nowhere in the verse - period!
A Reform Judaism translation is like a Living Bible translation for Christians - it best to read it in the KJV.

You wrote:" Muslims don't reject the covenant coming through Isaac Alaihi salaam. We believe that the Ishmaeel alaihi salaam and Isaac alaihi salaam where both included in the covenant. I believe it is the Later jews who changed this to a Israelite only, so that they could reject the Arabian Prophet that rose from the seed of Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam.

My response: Then you can't believe anything the entire Bible says because it is every bit of it is based upon the Genesis 17:15-21 context. Not one of the Hebrew prophets can be trusted if that were the case.

Actually, its the other way around. Your picking and choosing what you want to believe in order to believe that Ishmaelite prophet.
The ancient copies and codexes that are centuries older than Mohammad speaks for themselves.
What we have today, we had centuries before Mohammad, while no proof whatsoever can be found of any noted changes.

The Hebrew Bible is a message in and of itself. It's bases (Beginnings / Genesis) include the Avrahamic covenant consisting of Avraham-Isaac-Jacob-and his twelve sons-tribes, and not else.
The entire Torah, all the prophets, and all the holy writers of the Hebrew Bible never teach, preach, or prophecy outside this theme whatsoever. That's Biblical bottom line!

Joe Whitehead said...

Ahmed,
One other thing I wanted to mention.

Though Ishmael had a status at one point, as Avraham's only son, one cannot say that at any time he was Avraham's only son through Sarah - the "wife of the covenant". To this he had no part whatsoever. Hagar had a lower status than Sarah. She didn't have the status of an actual "wife", but of a "handmaid-woman".

Let me know Islam's take on Sari having her name changed by God and the reason for it, and why Hagar didn't have a covenant name-change. I'm anxious to hear.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
I want to add just one more point to the understanding of “Avraham’s religion”.

You wrote that the reason all the prophets were in fact Hebrew prophets simply because they were sent to the Hebrews. While this statement is true is doesn’t answer the question as to why it was the Hebrews of all peoples (including the Ishmeelites) that received the prophets to begin with. The answer to that question connects with what is actually “Avraham’s religion”.

It goes to reason that if Ishmael and Isaac equally shared the same covenant of the "religion of Avraham" then they should have shared in the prophets of whom would have been sent by God to both covenant peoples.

For what prophet did the Ishmeelites have sent to them by God in comparison to Moses who came out of Jacob to the people of Jacob? What prophet of biblical times liken to Jeremiah did the nations have sent to them from Ishmael? (Jeremiah 1:5)

We have words of Moses that will further confirm that it was Isaac‘s seed, and his seed only, that would receive the covenant (true religion) of Avraham. Keep in mind that the following words are a full vindication that the context of Genesis 17:15-21 is completely correct and that nothing has been added.

“For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?” - Deuteronomy 4:7-8

The context is signifying that there is no nation (including any of Ishmael) that is so great as the one that came out of Jacob that “hath God so nigh unto them in all things that they would call upon him for” and that there is no other nation (again, including any Ishmeelite ones) that,“is so great that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all the law” that Moses gave Isaac’s seed.

Again, why didn’t Ishmeel get a prophet like Moses in the first place, and God being so nigh unto Ishmeel‘s seed as He is declared by Moses to be unto Isaac’s seed? And why didn’t Ishmeel receive of God, great statutes and judgments so righteous as all the law” that Moses gave to Isaac’s seed?

Further words of Moses confirming the Isaac-only covenant to the true "Avraham religion" of Genesis 17:15-21 states as follows:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, ABOVE ALL PEOPLE THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people". - Deuteronomy 7:6-7

Wait a minuet Ahmed, why isn't Ishameel and his seed chosen to be a special people unto God? Aren't Ishmeel and Isaac sharing in the same covenant of Avraham/s religion? How is it that God didn't include an Ishmeelite nation as being "a special people unto God Himself, ABOVE ALL PEOPLE THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH?

Ahmed,look at Ishmeal's blessing:
"...I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly"(Gen.17:20).
Now compare that to what God states concerning Israel.
"The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number [like perhaps Ishmael]than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people."

Isaac's seed would be few while Ishmael would be numerous making Isaac the fewest and most loved - and so is it today. Billions of Muslims, of almost have the world's population, while little Israel is the smallest of countries and amount to approximately 0.04% of the world's population!

Ahmed,
You may point out Israel's sins all you want, but I dare say the Muslim world breaks the Law of Moses (Avraham's religion) more than the Jews do, though the Jews should know better which makes it worse for them.

Still, God, through the honor of His name and His love for Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will bring Israel back (not to Islam) but to those "righteous statutes and judgments" of the Law of Moses that is the true and ONLY religion of Avraham!

Let me make it even more clear by another Hebrew vindicating scripture:
"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people ISRAEL TO BE A PEOPLE UNTO THEE FOR EVER: and thou, LORD, art become their God. - II Samuel 7:23-24

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed and all who might read this discussion, some biblical notes of interest:

The angel of the Lord in Genesis 16:12 states that Ishmael will, "dwell in the presence of all his brethren" while Genesis 25:18 states that the Ishmeelites dwellt in the non-covenanted land of, "Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he [Ishmeal] died in the presence of all his brethren."

These two scriptures when compared together show that Ishmael has no covenant foundation to the promised land of Israel as Ahmed and others have claimed to included Muslims.

Continuing that thought of the land and especially the holy city of Jerusalem (today's religious epic center), the prophet Nehemiah told an Egyptian, a Jordanian, and a Saudi Arabian of his day that: "The God of heaven, He will prosper us; therefore we his servants will arise and build: but YE HAVE NO PORTION, NOR RIGHT, NOR MEMORIAL, IN JERUSALEM." - Nehemiah 2:20

Assyrian records record a Ishmaelite presence of which intermarried with and was absorbed by the Midianites (of Arabia). Genesis 37:25-28 / 39:1 shows Ishmael-Midian ties, as does Judges 8:22-24.

The fact is, Ishmael had no seed of promise by the eternal covenant and therefore only remains in the form of a people (Arabs) that existed before, during, and now after the birth of Ishmael!
Note: Ishmael is not the founder of the Arab (people of Arabia). Even by Arabian sources, "Qahtan" is the founder of the people, not Ishmael.
see> http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/485396/Qahtan

ahmed said...

i was a bit busy. i will respond to ur posts in 1 or 2 days.

peace!

ahmed said...

by the way , do you have any information regarding the age of Abraham alaihi salaam when the sacrifice took place ??

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
The Torah tells us that Sarah died thirty-seven years after after the promised son was announced of which Avraham was ninrty-nine.
(See Genesis 17:17 and Genesis 23:1)

Of Avraham who died after Sarah, the Torah tells us that he was of a "good old age" and "full of years".

In your reason in asking, remember Isaac means "he shall laugh" in Hebrew, of which both Avraham and Sarah did > Genesis 17:17 / Genesis 18:12

Also, Isaac was the very first son to fulfill to actual covenant:

"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.: - Genesis 17:11,12

"And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him." -Geneses 21:4

ahmed said...

U wrote:

What our discussion boils down to is what one accepts as his/her "holy book" - the Bible or the Koran. Was it Isaac that God told Avraham to sacrifice as Genesis 22:2 tells us, or was it Ishmael as the Koran tells us in sura 37:102? We can't have it both ways. One has to be the Word of God and the other is simply not the word of God!


reponse: Yes , todays torah is the rewritten torah.

I have already quoted the various traslations genesis 22:2:

Inshort, there was never a time when Isaac Alaihi salaam was the only son/begotten son.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON,"

Genesis 22:
16 and said, I have sworn by Myself, says the LORD; because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your ONLY ONE; 17 that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies.

It is clear to see that the blessing and multipying the seed "like the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore" has been fulfillled by the seed of Ishmael Alaihi salaam.


U wrote:
Though Ishmael had a status at one point, as Avraham's only son, one cannot say that at any time he was Avraham's only son through Sarah - the "wife of the covenant". To this he had no part whatsoever. Hagar had a lower status than Sarah. She didn't have the status of an actual "wife", but of a "handmaid-woman".

Response:
Hagar was the legitimate "wife" of Abraham.
Genesis 16:3 "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his "WIFE"."

And Ishmael (A.S) was always Abrahams(A.S) "son".

Genesis 25:9 "Then his SONS Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,"
Genesis 25:12 "Now these are the records of the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's SON, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maid, bore to Abraham;"�0�2


And God will not allow the right of the "first-born" to be jeopardised even if the child is the offspring of a hated wife.(deuteronomy 21:16)

As for those who believe that the Bible today does not contain forgeries , the "handmaid women" argument would be a ridiculous one.

According to Genesis (12:10-20, 20:2-18) Sarah was Abraham's sister.

The editors must not have come across (Duet. 27:22).
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people say: Amen"?


It is, of course, another matter altogether that Genesis, Numbers and Deuteronomy all give different sizes of the land granted to Abraham (s) and his offspring. The differences appear to be prima face evidence of human intervention and involvement in the formulation of the present text of the passages concerned.

The only reason for exclusion of Ishmael alaihi salaam are some cheap skate "ass/donkey" names added onto the bible, lowering the status of Hagar and a belief of racial supremacy like that of hindu brahmans. An argument of being racially chosen to be a priest over gentiles is an innovation in the religion of Abraham.

Amos 9:7- Are ye not as the children of the Ethiopians unto Me, O children of Israel? saith HaShem. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor, and Aram from Kir?


The Qur��an refutes the claim that Jews or Christians have any special relationship with Allah which makes them His beloved, or His Chosen People:

��(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah, and His beloved. Say: Then why does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are (just) human beings like all the rest He has created. He forgives whomsoever He wishes (to forgive) and punishes whomsoever He wishes (to punish). To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all).�� (Qur��an: al-Maida:-5:20)

��They say: Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided (to salvation). Say (to them): Nay! (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true, and he joined not gods with Allah.�� (Qur��an: al-Baqarah: -2:135)


The covenant of Abraham and the concept of "chosen people" is about great pious Prophets coming from the seed ; special attachment of the seed of Abraham with the holy land; That all the Prophets would guide the seed of Abraham to that way of life which will constitute a model of true religion (imam)for the rest of mankind; That the seed of Abraham would be given the holy land of Palestine for the purpose of establishing and sustaining
therein the model of a religious community which is faithful to the religion of Abraham;
That the status of religious leadership of mankind, and the title to the holy land of Palestine which is integrally related to it, would exclude those of the seed of Abraham (s) who committed acts of zulm (sin and wickedness);That the covenant would continue to be operational with some part of the seed of Abraham (s) until the advent of
the final Prophet ;That the holy land would remain the possession of the seed of Abraham (s) so long as they remained faithful to the Covenant with Allah

"Chosen people" being attributed to Israilites is because at that time they alone accepted the religion. it was not just because of the bloodline . No one is holier than someone else based on his race.

��Who man is he who fears the Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will show them His Covenant.�� (Psalm 25:12-14)

See an example of many nations coming together to worship the one God without any difference.

Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria; and the Egyptians shall worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth;
25 for that HaShem of hosts hath blessed him, saying: 'Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.'

-----------------

U wrote :
It is interesting to note that not one of God's prophets ever came to any other people (including the Ishmaelites) accept the chosen Jews.

response:
According to islam Prophets where sent to every nation. the world is bigger than Israil.
But many of the Prophets mentioned in the quran are of Banu Israil so that they would remember the blessings and make crooked things straight.

"O Children of Israel!
Call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, And fulfill your covenant with me as I fulfill my covenant with you,
And fear none but me."
(Quran 2:40)

[2:41]
You shall believe in what I have revealed herein,
confirming what you have; do not be the first to reject
it. Do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price,
and observe Me.


[2:47]
O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I bestowed
upon you, and that I blessed you more than any other
people.



U wrote:
Moses himself became a "known established prophet by the Avraham-Isaac-Jocab covenant, for this is what he himself wrote of.................... Deuteronomy 1:1,8

Response:
i.e because Moses (a.s) came through the seed of Avraham-Isaac-Jocab.


U wrote:
One must wonder why wasn't Moses a prophet to the Ishmaelites as well if Ishmael was equal in God spiritual callings as a people?

I say: because Moses(a.s) wasn't sent for Banu Ishmael in the first place. Although Moses (A.S) was a Jew by race, the religion he followed was Islam, the religion of all the Prophets.



U wrote:
Even Isa's (Jesus) whole ministry was possible because of the chosen Isaac-seed factor (Matthew 15:24). It was because of the Maccabee "Zionist" Revolt that paved the way for Jesus to have a ministry among the people he himself considered "chosen" (St.Matthew 23:2 / St. John 4:22).

response:
Isa (a.s) was sent for Banu Israil (Matthew 15:21-26, Matthew 10:5-6) and he was from the seed of Isaac alaihi salaam.

After the rejection of Isa alaihi salaam (John 1:11) (Luke 19:41-44) and their attempts to kill him, etc they no longer remained chosen.
.
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"
---------------------------------

ahmed said...

U wrote:
The chosen seed of Isaac has been established for literally millenias before Islam was ever established, during which there was never a people who argued that Ishmael was the sacrifice on Moriah (Gen. 22:2)or even that he has a "spiritual significance" among the peoples of the world, especially among the Hebrew people.

response:
quoting from somewhere else:
""" Even before Islam the pagan idolatrous Arabs who had descended from Ishmael (s) commemorated, every year, for thousands of years before the birth of Muhammad (s), the event of Abraham��s sacrifice of the ram instead of his son. They did so at the time of the annual pilgrimage to the Temple (Ka��aba) in Arabia in which very large numbers of animals were sacrificed. Even while they worshiped idols made of wood and stone they had great veneration for the animals of sacrifice (Qurban). Such animals were carefully chosen, treated with great care and affection, gaily decorated, and taken from great distances to the Temple for sacrifice. The sacrifice was located in the world of the sacred which no Arab dared violate.

The question which must be answered is: if (as the Torah declares) the child of sacrifice was Isaac (s), and if (as the Torah declares) the sacrifice took place on mount Moriah (which, it is believed, is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock is now located), and if mount Moriah is in Palestine, why then were the pagan idolatrous Arabs, descendants of Ishmael (s), the only people in all of mankind who commemorated that sacrifice of Abraham (s) uninterruptedly for thousands of years from the time of the original sacrifice, and why is it still being commemorated to this day with millions and millions of animals being sacrificed there at the Temple (masjid) built by Abraham (s) in Arabia and at millions of other places all over the earth at the time of the annual Islamic festival of Eid al-Adha?

The only logical explanation that is possible is that the child of the sacrifice was, indeed, Ishmael (s), and the sacrifice did take place in Arabia at the spot where the Temple (the Ka��aba) was built by Abraham (s) and Ishmael (s).

The Qur��an offers the best explanation for the otherwise inexplicable historical fact of the great annual sacrifice by pagan Arabs. It says that Allah preserved the event of the sacrifice for posterity with a great commemorative sacrifice at the time of the annual pilgrimage:

��And We ransomed him with a great and momentous sacrifice. And We preserved it for later generations.�� (Qur��an: al-Saffat: -37:109-110) """
----------------------------------
U wrote:
If the Torah and therefore the rest of the Hebrew Bible was altered as the Koran claims,(sura 2: 75-79) why and when was it altered? No alterations could have come as a result to the advent of Islam (as mainstream Islam claims) because we have ancient copies like that of the Septuagint and others that out-date the rise of Islam not by months or years, but by actual centuries!

Response:
Alterations have been taking place for a long time. Many reasons are there. They being jealous of ishmaelites like the brothers of Yusuf Alaihi Salaam . wanting to be a exclusive chosen people. Wanting Prophets to be only from israilites. Hiding the truth......etc
Are the ancient copies accessible? If so, is there anyway muslim scholars could access it.
-------------------------
U wrote:
Furthermore, if Ishmael was the one who was offered in Avraham's great test on Moriah, why don't we have a Bible written of God-sent prophets coming from the Ishmaelites? Why is it that the son (according to the Koran) NOT set for sacrifice as Avraham's greatly beloved, the one whoes offspring is the ones coming up with the Holy Bible? Why isn't there an Ishmaelite produced Holy Bible like what came out of the Hebrews?

Response:
Ishmael alaihi salaam was sent to makkah where the first masjid(temple) built by Adam(A.S) stands to estabish the religion of Abraham there. While Isaac was to estalish the religion of Abraham at the site where the 2nd masjid was to built by Soloman(A.S).

��And remember Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House (or Temple) (with this prayer): Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us, for thou art the allhearing, the allknowing.�� (Qur��an: al-Baqarah: -2:127)

�� . . . And We covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it around, who use it as a retreat, and who bow and prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).�� (Qur��an: al-Baqarah: -2:125)

But also such references are missing in the bible.

It was only one Messenger that Abraham(A.S) had Prayed for, and it was fulfilled.

The Prayer of Abraham alaihi salaam was:

��Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger (of Allah) of their own, who shall recite Thy Signs (and revelations) to them, and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and sanctify them. For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.�� (Qur��an: al-Baqarah: -2:129)



�� ��Abd alWahhab ibn ��Ata alIjli informed us: Juwaybir informed us on the authority of alDahhak: Verily the Prophet (s) said: ��I am (in response to) the prayer of my ancestor Ibrahim who said while he was erecting the columns of the Ka��aba: Oh our Lord! Raise up in their midst a Messenger.�� He recited the verse (Qur��an: al-Baqarah 2:129) to the end.��
[Ibn Sa��ad: Kitab alTabaqat alKabir].



Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) is from the seed of Ishmael Alaihi salaam.

��Wathila bin alAsqa reported: I heard Allah��s Messenger saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Ishmael; and He granted eminence to the Quraish amongst the Kinana; and He granted eminence to Banu Hashim amongst the Quraish; and He granted me eminence from amongst the tribe of Banu Hashim.��
[Sahih Muslim. Kitab alFadail]


��Salama bin alAkwa said that the Prophet passed by some persons of the tribe of Aslam practicing archery. Allah��s Messenger said: ��Oh offspring of Ishmael! Practice archery as your father was a great archer. I am with (i.e., on the side of) the son of soandso.�� Hearing that, one of the two teams stopped shooting. Allah��s Messenger asked them: ��Why are you not throwing?�� They replied, ��Oh Allah��s Messenger! How shall we throw when you are with the opposite team? he said: ��Throw, for I am with you all.��
[Bukhari. Kitab alAnbiya]

��Abu Hurairah narrated: Abraham did not conceal the truth except on three occasions. Twice for the sake of Allah, when he said: ��I am sick,�� and he said, �� (I have not done this but) the big idol has done it" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Abu Hurairah then said: That (Hajar i.e., Hagar, the mother of Ishmael) was your mother, Oh bani maissama (i.e., Oh children of the water of heaven, a reference to Zam Zam).�� [Bukhari: Kitab alAnbiya]

ahmed said...

U wrote:For example, you quoted Psalms 37:29, but refuse the part of the ��same message�� that reads : ��O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen��....... .. for an EVERLASTING COVENANT: Saying, Unto thee will I WILL GIVE THE LAND OF CANAAN THE LOT OF YOUR INHERITANCE.��
Psalms 105: 6, 8-11

response:
the reason why i posted it is to show that the land was not given unconditionally. the land will be forever as long as the covenant is not violated.

When Allah informed Abraham (s) of his elevation to the high rank of Imam (religious head) of mankind, he asked whether that status would devolve on his offspring. The reply of Allah was as follows:

��My Covenant will not extend to include the sinful (and wicked) (from amongst your offspring).��
(Qur��an: al-Baqarah:-2:124)


--------------------

U wrote:
Incidentally, the very next verse after 31 (describing those who keep the law of Moses as the righteous) says of the wicked: "The wicked watcheth the righteous [the Torah of Moses keepers] and seeketh to slay him.I see the vindication of this verse in today's Kassam rocket firings into Israel and in the mindset of the infamous sahih (reliable)Bukhari hadith, that says, at the end of days the stones will cry out to the Muslim, "there is a Jew (a Moses-law keeper) hiding behind me come kill (murder) him."

response:
It is not refering to the ishmaelites. nor do the ishmaelites walk around trying to slay israilites. The narration of the stones is a prophesy and not ruling. u can witness what is happening in the narration today. As for kassam rockets, it is a response to oppression. if ur expecting flowers to the thrown back, ur mistaken.

Isiah 54:14 In righteousness shalt thou be established; be thou far from oppression,...


��To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are
wronged; and verily, Allah is Most Powerful for their aid; (They are) those who have
been expelled from their homes in defiance of right, (for no cause) except that they
say, ��Our Lord is Allah������
(Qur��an, al-Hajj, 22:39-40)

This was precisely the way that the Zionist State of Israel was established.

Those who cant see oppression in the holy land and demonise those who resist oppression to be terrorists are blind.

��How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah seeing that we and our families
have been driven out of our home?��
(Qur��an, al:Baqarah, 2:246)

[Quran 2:49]
Recall that we saved you from Pharaoh's people who
inflicted upon you the worst persecution, slaying your
sons and sparing your daughters. That was an exacting
test from your Lord.

At least you should have remebered this:
Lev 19:
33 And if a man from another country is living in your land with you, do not make life hard for him; 34 Let him be to you as one of your countrymen and have love for him as for yourself; for you were living in a strange land, in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Dont forget that the body of Pharoh was discovered (by Loret, scientifically identified, and now preserved in the Cairo Museum)
at around the same time(1898) the zionist state was created. The body being preserved as a sign is mentioned in the Quran.

But this day We shall preserve your body (from destruction) so that you (i.e., your physical body) may become a sign to those who come after you: for most people are heedless of Our signs.��
(Qur��an: Yunus: -10:9293)


I believe all jews acknowledge that the scattering of jews before the zionist state was established was because they where expelled from the holy land by God and that they were in exile.

It was also prophesised:

��If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace��but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God��s coming to you. (Luke 19:41-44)

The above took place in 70AD by the Romans.
The third temple was then built by the muslims .

Which revelation then came for you people to return back to the holyland?

And since you dont believe in the messiah's first coming and consider urself to be still chosen people waitin more than 2000yrs for the messiah then, It is the messiah who will gather you back , not a jeudo-christian alliance or a godless movement.

Isaiah 11:12 He will lift a signal flag for the nations; he will gather Israel's dispersed people and assemble Judah's scattered people from the four corners of the earth.

ahmed said...

U wrote:
However, if you want to get technical about it, Esau (who like Ishmael was not part of the covenant - see Malachi 1:2-3) married both Ishmael's daughters (Gen 28:9 / Gen. 36:3) and dwelt in Seir (Gen.32:3).

response:
quoting from elsewhere:
""" It is alleged that "God hated Esau and loved Jacob," while the twins were in their mother's womb; and that the "elder brother was to serve his younger one" (Gen. xxv Rom. ix. 12, 13). But, strange to say, another report, probably from another source, shows the case to be just the reverse of the above-mentioned prediction. For the thirty- third chapter of Genesis clearly admits that Jacob served Esau, before whom he seven times prostrates in homage, addressing him "My Lord," and declaring himself as "your slave."""

The reason of such allegations could be because Esau the seed of Isaac alaihi salaam had married the seed of Ishmael alaihi salaam hence showing that seeds of Ishmael (a.s) was also included in the covenant.

--------------

U wrote:
Notice Ahmed, the God of Israel will be against the inhabitants of Seir because of their "perpetual hatred" against the Jews! What will I find if I were to walk down the streets of Jenin, Ramallah, Nabalus, or anywhere in Gaza? Would I fnd that "perpetual hatred" for the Jewish people the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel was talking about? You know I would.

response:
Muslims dont have hatred against jews. It is the zionists. Jews have lived under muslim control for years happily. Even Iran holds a large number of jews. But none of those jews support zionism. Jewsagainstzionism.com has rightfully put out the truth of zionism and its anti jewish character.

The prophesy must be refering to the pagans who lived before the last Prophet arrived.

the muslim reation with God can be understood from {Zephaniah 3:9}
"For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

In the Strong's Bible Dictionary, the word "language (saphah)" in this verse can also mean [ side, edge, border]

Therefore, Zephaniah 3:9 can also be translated to read "I will TURN people to ONE direction" which we witness with Muslims all facing -East- to pray and also speaking one language in prayer, a language which non-Arabs describe as a "pure language"

While the condition of those who have obtained the curse of God are described in Genesis 11:7


Moreover Isaiah 42 mentions of a "servant" and "elect" coming to the "gentiles"; "with his law";
who will be " a light of the Gentiles";
and because of which "wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit"

Kedar is son of Ishmael (pbuh) (Genesis 25:13-16). So you know where the location is.

The Isaiah 42 is a prophesy regarding Prophet Muhammmed (PBUH) which is as clear as day light. I will post an explaination for it in an another post.
------------------------

------------------------
U wrote:
Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people."

Deuteronomy 9:5-6 is as Ezekiel promises in Ezekiel 36 (quoted above) Israel's righteousness has nothing to do with it. God acts in Israel's favor because of the covenant of their fathers and His name sake to those fathers, not whether or not Israel breaks with God.

Response:
That itself is the problem. It was because of unrighteosness that the jews where punished and expelled. While deu 9:6 contridicts it.

remeber this:
""........the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants�� (Leviticus 25:23).""

The Torah was given in the Sinai desert, and most of the narrative takes place there. The Land of Israel was given to the Jews as a gift on condition that they keep the Torah. When they did not, they were thrown out.
-----------------------------

Quoting jermiah u wrote:
Wow, did you catch that last part of "the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever"?

Response:
Its shocking to see how you put forward such justifications.
what you quoted contains this:
" which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD"

the point of expelling the israilites was because they violated the covenant. then what makes you think that would not happen again?

What you quoted is about Gods mercy , that God has forgiven you and giving you another chance .
" for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

But what you understand from it is that the land was given unconditionally. The land was given to Abraham seeds forever. But still the seeds got kicked out when they vioated the covenant.

--------------------------------

ahmed said...

U wrote:
Ahmed, when you refer to Isaiah 48:6-9 read it on down to at least to verse 12, and you will discover Isaiah reconfirming what Iv'e just stated prior. In

response:
I was just pointing to the"deceitful" and "rebel from birth" part. So that the addition "wild donkey" is not used as an excuse to exclude one of the seed of Abraham(A.S) from the covenant.

------------------------------

U wrote:
All the males of Avraham's house was circumcised, not just Ishamael and Avraham alone. Were they all part of the Avrahamic covenant too? I think not: "And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. - Genesis 17:23

Response:
Yes. As i mentioned the covenant is based on following the religion of Abraham(A.S). When you go against it your violating the covenant. Their circumcision was a sign of covenant of Abraham as mentioned :

" And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin. And it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you."
"And My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

It is a fact of history that there have been only two people in the world who have circumcised their males as a religious duty all through history, Banu Israil (today's Jews being the remnant) and Banu Ismail (the Arabs).

The question therefore arises, why were the pagan idolatrous Arabs practicing circumcision even before it was confirmed by the Prophet Muhammad (s)? After all, no people other than the Jews were doing it. There can only be one answer to that question. The pagan Arabs were doing it because they were the seed of Ishmael (s), and because circumcision, as the ��Sign of the Covenant��, had been made obligatory on the seed of Ishmael. The historical fact of circumcision in Arabia thus confirms the existence of an essential link with the religion of Abraham (s).

------------------------


U wrote:
This is why the Muslims circumcise teenagers to this day, because of this verse. However, that age like Avraham's at 99 years, was not part of the Isaac-only covenant that was to be done on the eighth day of life. This actually shows, if nothing else, that Ishmael doesn't have a place in the spiritual calling of a nation that Isaac / Jacob has.

response:
the covenant mentioned in gen 17:10,11 and 13 does not mention 8 days. while 17:12 does not say it is a condition of the covenant. The reson of being excluded is mentioned in 17:14, in which the 8th day is not taken as reason for exclusion.

---------------------------------

U wrote:
The blessing of Ishmael is not to make him part of the covenant as Genesis 17:21 plainly indicates. Ishmael's blessing (of a different kind) is spelled out in the actual verse itself............. But none of this has to do with have a stake of the covenant. Again, the blessing in Psalms 37:22 has to do with the B blessing of Israel obeying the Law of Moses, of which they are promised to do as the scriptures point out above.

Response:
Psalms 37:22 is very clear that the blessed will inherit the land. And Ishmael (A.S)was mentioned as being among those blessed hence among those who will inherit the land.
Obeying the law and blessing israel is not a blessing. Rather it is obeying the law that will led to being blessed.

----------------------

ahmed said...

U wrote:
""You keep mentioning the "religion of Abraham". It is the breaking the "Law of Moses" (something foreign to Muslims) that got them booted out of the land.""
""Now let ask the question, Do the Muslims of the world keep Torah (the Law of Moses) that they may fit the definition of who is righteous as according to David the Psalmist in Psalms 37:29?""
""Again, does the Muslims whom you claim follow the Avraham's religion, keep the Law of Moses?
They may not eat pork, but do they refrain from working on the Sabbath (7th. day of the week) as Isaiah 56:6-7 states:" to be his servants, every one that KEEPETH THE SABBATH FROM POLLUTING IT, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer""

"Do the Muslims circumcise on the EIGHTH day of life as the Torah teaches or do they circumcise when teenagers?
"And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. - Leviticus 12:3"

Response:

Quran(47:19) , Q(42:11) , Q(2:224), Q(17:23) , Q(5:38 - 39) , Q(24:7) & Q(2:283), Q(5:32), Q(17:32), Q(4:36) & Saying of the Prophet
Muhammad (P) "One of the greatest sins
is to have illicit sex with your neighbors wife", Q(62:9) are the ten commandments respectively.

Now the questions comes, who is holier, A godless person with jewish blood or a muslim ?

�1�7�1�7Who man is he who fears the Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will show them His Covenant.�1�7�1�7
(Psalm 25:12-14)

---------------------------
U wrote:
Why did God only use Hebrew prophets (from Isaac/ Jacob - the stiffneaked ones) to carry out His holy mission to the nations?
"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:4-5

response:
As mentioned the israilite prophets including Jermiah where sent only for Banu israil.
-----------------------------
U wrote:
If that is indeed the case, then why is this mentioned in the Septuagint from 250bce and in all the ancient codex copies, centuries before Mohammad? Any claim can be made, but where is the proof of such a claim? Furthermore, if that was the main reason, then the whole of the Bible would be an addition of God know what? Especially, Genesis 17:15-21.

response:
The present variations in translations show that "ass" and "donkey" are additions. In darby translation instead of "wild" we have "mountain".

a muslim scholar 700yrs ago mentioned it this way:
"" the angel had predicted that her son would be a strong man, his hand will be against everyone and their hands will be against him and he will possess all the lands of his brothers. ""

Now see how the last part of it also changes:

and he will possess all the lands of his brothers.(muslim scholar)
And he shall live in the presence of all his brothers.(Mkjv,Webster)
and he shall dwell before the face of all his brethren. (darby,JPS1917)
and he shall dwell over against all his brethren.(Amv)
He will live opposite all of his brothers.(Web)

From all translations only the first one has been fulfilled.
-------------------------

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
I'll respond to each separate post separately.

You wrote:"todays torah is the rewritten torah."
Genesis 22:
16 and said, I have sworn by Myself, says the LORD; because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your ONLY ONE; 17 that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies.

My Response: If the Torah is rewritten, then why quote anything from it, including anything from Genesis 22:16-17. Is it because you wish to use a certain wording (I dare say way out of context)in order to come up with an Islamic doctrine, while everything else throughout the Torah totally cuts down that very doctrine, so therefore in your mind it has to be "rewritten".
Ok fine, I'll say the Koran's rewritten, how's that? and guess what, I'm the Mahdi.
I'm still waiting to hear from you as to "when" this "rewriting" took place and of what source.

You wrote:"Hagar was the legitimate "wife" of Abraham.
Genesis 16:3 "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his "WIFE"."

My Response:Actually, your bringing the wording into view along with the context makes my point even more so. The context is best given in the Darby Translation: "and gave her to her husband Abram, "AS" HIS WIFE." Hagar was a "makeshift" wife through Sarai's doubt (Gen.16:1,2) Sarah certainly didn't call Hagar Avraham's wife later on> "Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out "THIS BONDWOMAN" this and her son: for the son of "THIS BONDWOMAN shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. - Gen. 21:10
More importantly, God NEVER called Hagar Abraham's "wife". >
"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy BONDWOMAN; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. Again, God NEVER called Hagar Abraham's "wife"!

To get a 1st. century Jewish understanding - Torah original, we can read Paul's view of the unaltered Torah:
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.So then, brethren, we are not children of the "bondwoman" but of the free." Galatians 4:28-31

I guess you could say Paul was a Jew living in Israel with a right Torah understanding concerning Ishmael (and Hagar) at least five centuries before the birth of Mohammad. So again, Ahmen, where is this "rewriting" of the Torah?

You wrote:"According to Genesis (12:10-20, 20:2-18) Sarah was Abraham's sister.The editors must not have come across (Duet. 27:22).

My Response:"As you grasp for straws your getting more ridiculous.
You that the law of Moses came long after Cain's time(Gen. 4:17) as well as Abraham's time.
And you know that Sarah'(outside the Torah's prohibition) had a different mother than did Avraham. (Gen. 20:12).
The very fact is that Moses' connection to Avraham is through Isaac, not Ishmael...unless of course you think that part was rewritten too?

You wrote:"The only reason for exclusion of Ishmael alaihi salaam are some cheap skate "ass/donkey" names added onto the bible, lowering the status of Hagar and a belief of racial supremacy like that of hindu brahmans. An argument of being racially chosen to be a priest over gentiles is an innovation in the religion of Abraham."

My Response: Then don't believe anything of the Bible including anything written about Ishmael. Hey, maybe all the verses concerning even his name (donkey-ass or not)is an rewritten innovation? The fact is, your doing what your claiming the Torah is. You, yourself are trying to rewrite the Torah while claiming it was rewritten. (Seems like I have a blog on this entitled "Victim / Villain Role Switch").
Islam wants to take the spiritual known concepts that has existed for millenniums before it, to spin it (rewriting it) for itself!
Sorry, but what is there is there, regardless how many times you wish to claim an unproven and ridicules claim.
Like I said, I can claim just like any Muslim: I declare that the Koran was rewritten in order to not have me as the real revealed Mahdi. I'm the true ONLY son of Avraham from Zimran's seed from which the Koran (if it wasn't rewriten) would tell you that the true Mahdi would come though Zimran. Gen.25:1

You wrote:"The Qur��an refutes the claim that Jews or Christians have any special relationship with Allah which makes them His beloved, or His Chosen People:

My Response: The Koran rejects the entire Bible, then again, the entire Bible rejects the Koran.
The Koran wants to use the base and popularity of the Bible for a support and a starting point, but will receive none of it's true message and context > again, found all through (in every aspect)of the entire Hebrew Bible.

You wrote:"The covenant of Abraham and the concept of "chosen people" is about great pious Prophets coming from the seed ; special attachment of the seed of Abraham with the holy land; That all the Prophets would guide the seed of Abraham to that way of life which will constitute a model of true religion (imam)for the rest of mankind; That the seed of Abraham would be given the holy land of Palestine for the purpose of establishing and sustaining
therein the model of a religious community which is faithful to the religion of Abraham;
That the status of religious leadership of mankind, and the title to the holy land of Palestine which is integrally related to it, would exclude those of the seed of Abraham (s) who committed acts of zulm (sin and wickedness);That the covenant would continue to be operational with some part of the seed of Abraham (s) until the advent of
the final Prophet ;That the holy land would remain the possession of the seed of Abraham (s) so long as they remained faithful to the Covenant with Allah
"Chosen people" being attributed to Israilites is because at that time they alone accepted the religion. it was not just because of the bloodline . No one is holier than someone else based on his race."

My Response: You just contradicted yourself. To say, "the covenant would continue to be operational with some part of the seed of Abraham" and then say, "it was not just because of the bloodline" is contradictory. Who then says that any of Avraham's seed will have a part in any land?

The fact is Avraham's seed (not race) through Isaac and Jacob has an eternal promise to the land not of 135CE Hadrian naming "Palestine" but of Jacob/ Israel 1732BCE! They will not be in covenant with Allah, but in covenant with the one true God of Israel via the Law of Moses.

You wrote:"Who man is he who fears the Lord? Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth. The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will show them His Covenant.�� (Psalm 25:12-14)

My Response:"Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an EVERLASTING COVENANT: - Psalms 105:9-10

You wrote:"Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria; and the Egyptians shall worship with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth;
25 for that HaShem of hosts hath blessed him, saying: 'Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.'


My Response:" Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
-Zachariah 8:23

You wrote:"According to islam Prophets where sent to every nation. the world is bigger than Israil. But many of the Prophets mentioned in the quran are of Banu Israil so that they would remember the blessings and make crooked things straight.

My Response:You're still not getting the fact that there is no Ishmael people - no Ishmael prophets.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
- Jeremiah 1:5

You wrote:"i.e because Moses (a.s) came through the seed of Avraham-Isaac-Jocab.

My Response:"for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Deuteronomy . 6:4-8

You wrote:"I say: because Moses(a.s) wasn't sent for Banu Ishmael in the first place. Although Moses (A.S) was a Jew by race, the religion he followed was Islam, the religion of all the Prophets.

My response: Then I'm an old fashion Muslim - the kind that believes in the old fashion law of Moses.
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 4:2

You wrote:"Isa (a.s) was sent for Banu Israil (Matthew 15:21-26, Matthew 10:5-6) and he was from the seed of Isaac alaihi salaam.
After the rejection of Isa alaihi salaam (John 1:11) (Luke 19:41-44) and their attempts to kill him, etc they no longer remained chosen.
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

My response: I don't recall any Biblical prophets being sent to Ishmael. This shows for millenniums Ishmael had no special favor. This is something you're just not getting.
Israel was God's Chosen while having a rewritten Torah?
Give me a break Ahmed, look how you pick and choose to the point of contradicting yourself while avoiding the straightforward context of Biblical scripture and structure.

You wrote:"It is clear to see that the blessing and multipying the seed "like the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore" has been fulfillled by the seed of Ishmael Alaihi salaam.

My response: Israel was counted by the same Biblical figures of speech: "And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the STARS OF HEAVEN FOR A MULTITUDE; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God." Deut. 28:62

"For though thy people Israel be as the SAND OF THE SEA", yet a remnant of them shall return: -Ish 10:22

The fact remains however, We have the Jewish nation of Israel of the Avraham-Isaac-Jocab (Israel), but not a single nation called by Ishmael's name.

I will answer your remaining post in the coming days.

ahmed said...

u wrote:
Note: Ishmael is not the founder of the Arab (people of Arabia). Even by Arabian sources, "Qahtan" is the founder of the people, not Ishmael.
see> http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/485396/Qahtan

response: this might help

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Books/B0033P0001.aspx#Location%20and%20Nature%20of%20Arab%20Tribes


And ofcorse, there is no raise factor in Islam to live in the holyland.

the bloodline of the seed is important because of a Prophet arising.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed response to (February 12, 2009)
You wrote "Even before Islam the pagan idolatrous Arabs who had descended from Ishmael (s) commemorated, every year, for thousands of years before the birth of Muhammad...Even while they worshiped idols made of wood and stone they had great veneration for the animals of sacrifice (Qurban)."

My response:Why would descendants of Ishmael, as you say, "following the true religion of Avraham" be worshiping wood and stone in the first place? The simple fact is all the Arab tribes worshiped the Kaaba stone as do so many other meteorite-cults worship stones. >http://www.meteoris.de/basics/cult1.html
Which bring us to the question why is a stupid stone is in-cased in silver, walked around seven times during Islam's holiest time, and is caressed and kissed? The undeniable answer is: Mohammad couldn't get stone-worship out of his religion. The Islamic folklore about Avraham ever being in Arabia is just that, nothing but Islamic folklore to biblically justify the continence of pagan stone worship in the name of the Moon-god "Allah".
As far as trying to say animal sacrifice was tied into Avraham and Ishmael is Islamic hogwash as well. No source but an Islam source (go figure) makes such claims! This is why Islam is a religion of lies and based upon lies.
The truth is, all the Arab tribes practiced animal sacrifices (as people the world over did) and including human sacrifices of all things. I'm sure your well aware of Allah's (the moon god) daughter Uzzah (Venus) who liked human sacrifices. The sad part is this human sacrificing still goes on today. Every suicide shahid is nothing but a human sacrifice that is tied in with the old practices of human sacrifices to Uzzah, daughter of Allah.

You wrote "Alterations have been taking place for a long time. Many reasons are there. They being jealous of ishmaelites like the brothers of Yusuf Alaihi Salaam . wanting to be a exclusive chosen people. Wanting Prophets to be only from israilites. Hiding the truth......etc
Are the ancient copies accessible? If so, is there anyway muslim scholars could access it.

My response: For some reason I didn't get date(s) as to when any one change took place. All I got in your response was Islamic mobojombo (if, maybe, and could-have-been)
No Ahmed, you make the claim, now back it up with facts and reliable figures, not Islamic myths. I'm challenging you to place date and times on all changes of the Torah in your next post so your Islamic claim can be verified through institutions by non-religious scholars at a major universities. I'll be sure and note that I didn't get those date(s) and times in my response-post if you don't. And I'll keep doing so in all future post until you do. You have my promise on that.
The question is, have Islamic scholars tried to investigate the ancient copies to begin with and was denied (I think not) or are they satisfied believing their pseudo-prphet? Are you hoping some pseudoscience Islamic scholar will come up with fantastic tale in support of Islam?

To my question: "if Ishmael was the one who was offered in Avraham's great test on Moriah, why don't we have a Bible written of God-sent prophets coming from the Ishmaelites? Why is it that the son (according to the Koran) NOT set for sacrifice as Avraham's greatly beloved, the one whoes offspring is the ones coming up with the Holy Bible? Why isn't there an Ishmaelite produced Holy Bible like what came out of the Hebrews?"
I got nothing but more post-Islamic mobojombo folklore and myths. The real truth is the Ishmaelites melted into Arabian tribes and continued in worshipping Moon-god "Allah", his daughters AL-Lot, Al-Uzzah, and Manat, and the biblical "Baal" known as "Hubal". The question still remains, out of all this pagan worship from the Ishmaelites why wasn't there ever any Ishmaelite prophet among them to cry out against it? Mohammad didn't come until the 6th. century CE and even he (as I pointed out above about the Kaaba stone) didn't rid them of stone-worship.

You wrote "the reason why i posted it (Ps.37:29)is to show that the land was not given unconditionally. the land will be forever as long as the covenant is not violated.

My response:What your are refusing to see it that God of Israel will see to it that Israel will indeed not violate the covenant so that His word to Avraham Isaac and Jacoc will be forever:
"Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever."

Now read Psalms 37:29 along with Psalms 105:8-10 in this promised light of Ezekiel. Oh, but according to Islam that has been altered too right?

You wrote "It is not refering to the ishmaelites. nor do the ishmaelites walk around trying to slay israilites. The narration of the stones is a prophesy and not ruling. u can witness what is happening in the narration today. As for kassam rockets, it is a response to oppression. if ur expecting flowers to the thrown back, ur mistaken.

My response: The Mamzer Mohammad (death be upon him) murdered (like Hitler)the entire Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza of Yithrib and you know it. Don't try to justify his murdering filth, or the Palestinians murdering filth who murder in his name.
The narration shows Islam's true view of the Jewish people just as the Koran itself does (suras 5:60, 82 / 7:166
To say that the kassam rockets are because of oppression make you in my mind a jihadist-sympathizer and therefore an Islamic liar. You are everything a wahabbist is regardless of what you call yourself.
You prove my saying that all so-called moderates full of al-takiya and will always support Islamic Jihad including bin Laden.
Yes, the Six day War was all about "oppression" right Ahmed?
The 1948 War of Israeli Independence was all about Israeli oppression right? The 1929 Hebron massacure was all about oppression, right?
Farewell suicide video's holding up a Koran in one hand and a rifle in the other, is all about oppression right?
The Tunisia synagogue attack was because of oppression, right?
The Turkey synagogue attack was because of oppression, right?
9/11 was all about oppression right?
London bombings 7/7 were about about oppression, right?
Islamic term of "oppression" is an attempt to victim-villain-role-switch for the sake of the promotion of Islamic jihad.
Dar al-Islam is always the "oppressed" and can do no wrong (even in murder) while Dar al-Harb is always in the wrong by not submitting to an Islamic caliphate, right Ahmed?
Oh yes sura 8:12 is all about good o Muslim "oppression" as all of Arabia was under conquest.

Incidentally, the Jew-hating narration can be seen today in reverse. It is the coward Palestinians who hid behind women and children. The narration should have been:
"the last days shall not come until the mosques, hospitals,UN buildings, women, and children will say to the Israeli Jews, there is an Islamic terrorist cowardly hiding behind me, come and kill the mamzer along with us so the UN will condemn Israel for protecting itself against Islamic coward terrorism".

You wrote "Those who cant see oppression in the holy land and demonise those who resist oppression to be terrorists are blind.

My response: I fully agree. Those who can't see that the Israelis are being oppressed by Palestinian terrorism (10,000 rocket since 2000 from Hamas) and another 4,000 from Hezbollah and demonise the Israelis as terrorists for trying to protect themselves are UN - Quartet blind.
Yes, I fully agree.

You wrote "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of Allah seeing that we and our families
have been driven out of our home?��
(Qur��an, al:Baqarah, 2:246

My response: Don't aid, support,or engage in terrorism activity and you would be. Even a wild dumb donkey should be able to figure that one out.

You wrote "Lev 19:
33 And if a man from another country is living in your land with you, do not make life hard for him; 34 Let him be to you as one of your countrymen and have love for him as for yourself; for you were living in a strange land, in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

My response: If the Israelis didn't remember this, why is there Arab-Muslim (Palestinians) serving as MK members in the Israeli government, while Rocket firers now inhabit once Jewish homes in Jew-free (Judenrein) Gaza?
One thing Israel should never forget is:
"And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone (or Kassam rocket), wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. - Numbers

You wrote "The third temple was then built by the muslims .

My response: What a joke. Yes, and the Mormons believe it was built by them in Utah.

"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever...And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. - Ezekiel
"And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from JERUSALEM. - Isaiah

You wrote "And since you dont believe in the messiah's first coming and consider urself to be still chosen people waitin more than 2000yrs for the messiah then, It is the messiah who will gather you back , not a jeudo-christian alliance or a godless movement."

My response: You quote the New Testament like you really believe it, but reject what Jesus said about himself of his own crucifixion because your Koran wants to rewrite the Gospels, tells you different!
The Gospels were rewritten too right Ahmed? Give me a break!
Yes Israel has waited long for their messiah "physical offspring" of David (psalms 132:11 / Ezek. 37:25) not from someone "virgin birth" as in ancient paganism.

"For the children of Israel shall abide MANY DAYS without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:" - Amos

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed, (responding to post 02-12-09 1207pm)
You wrote"It is alleged that "God hated Esau and loved Jacob," while the twins were in their mother's womb; and that the "elder brother was to serve his younger one" (Gen. xxv Rom. ix. 12, 13). But, strange to say, another report, probably from another source, shows the case to be just the reverse of the above-mentioned prediction. For the thirty- third chapter of Genesis clearly admits that Jacob served Esau, before whom he seven times prostrates in homage, addressing him "My Lord," and declaring himself as "your slave."

My response: Genesis 33 only shows Jacob bowing to Esau out of respect and not actually serving him as you quote: a slave.
As you yourself noted "1st. century" Paul (a Jew living in Israel) had no questions about who would serve who with no reservations about the Torah being rewritten more than five hundred years before the birth of Mohammad, and as third century manuscripts and the Septuagint verify.

As the Torah tells us Esau is Edom>
Ge 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
Ge 36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
Ge 36:9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

2Sa 8:14 And he put garrisons in Edom; throughout all Edom put he garrisons, and all they of Edom became David's servants (ACTUAL SLAVES). And the LORD preserved David (THE JEW) whithersoever he went.

2Ch 21:10 So the Edomites revolted "from under the hand of Judah (JEWS)" unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the LORD God of his fathers.

As Gentile-Christian Matthew Henry states in his commentary:"His success against the Edomites. They all became David's servants, 2Sa 8:14. Now, and not till now, Isaac's blessing was accomplished, by which Jacob was made Esau's Lord (Ge 27:37-40) and the Edomites continued long tributary to the kings of Judah, as the Moabites were to the kings of Israel, till, in Joram's time, they revolted (2Ch 21:8) as Isaac had there foretold that Esau should, in process of time, break the yoke from off his neck. Thus David by his conquests".

You wrote"Muslims dont have hatred against jews. It is the zionists. Jews have lived under muslim control for years happily.

My response: Right,this is why we see the Syrian blood libel of 1840 was because of the "Zionists".
And this is why the blood libel film "A Rider without a Horse" was shown during the holy month Ramadan on Saudi and other Arab-Muslim television, all was because of the Zionist, right Ahmed?

This is why Palestinian spiritual leader, the Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini meet with Hitler in November 1941, formed the Jew-murdering The Hanjer Division, and oversaw concentration champs, was because of the Zionist, right?

This is why Hitler's Mein Kamph has been 6th. in the top sellers among Palestinians, and other Muslims countries >http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/MeinKampf/Turkey_bestseller.html
because it's all about the "zionist" right Ahmed?

Yes, the Iranians love the Jews so much that they make movies about them, one entitled, "Zahra's Blue Eyes" > http://www.memritv.org/subject/en/354.htm
Right Ahmed?

This is why the Talmud is unjustly attacked with outrageous lies again and again, has nothing to do with Judaism and Jews, just the Zionist, right Ahmed?

This is why the "Protocols" written by antisemitic Russians who were responsible for the Pale Settlement, that the Muslim world embraced (including the Hamas covenant Article 32) was all due to the Zionist right Ahmed?

The term "Zionist" is one way you, antisemites yes you Ahmed, try to disguise and justify your Nazi-like Jew-hatred. Islam is more tolerant towards Jews who don't hold the their covenant with God cause it helps promote Islam. But to the Jews who hold to their covenant (consisting of the land)they pose a real problem and danger to the very core center of Islam. And for a Jew to embrace his covenant in the holy land promised him, well then Kassam rockets must be fired at him to remove the treat he poses Islam in the lying claim of oppression, which is in reality "Islam oppression by supposedly religion-superiority"

To separate Zionist from Judaism and therefore Jews, shows how willfully ignorant Islam has made you Ahmed.

Zionism is Torah:
"If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers." - Deuteronomy

Zionism is in the writings:
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.-Psalms

Zionism is in the Prophets:
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever." - Ezekiel

The fact is Zionism is Judaism and Judaism is of the Jews. As the antisemites of the world know, but pretend not to know, (as you do) Zionism and Jews are by spiritual definition inseparable - so says the Hebrew Bible!

You wrote"the muslim reation with God can be understood from {Zephaniah 3:9}
"For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

My response:This is just another twist taking the verse totally out of context from its meaning.
The Hebrew prophets spoke in Hebrew to the Hebrew people with a Hebrew message for that very Hebrew people...that bottom line! Christian use this verse for them and I guess the Muslims has to try and do likewise. Whatever.
The Bible interprets itself under the bottom line reality I mentioned above.
"For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." Zechariah

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." - Jeremiah

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." - Zechariah

You wrote" Moreover Isaiah 42 mentions of a "servant" and "elect" coming to the "gentiles"; "with his law";
who will be " a light of the Gentiles";
and because of which "wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit"

My response: Sure, since you willfully for some reason failed to, let's have a look to see who that servant and elected servant at that is:
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."
Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel "MINE ELECT", I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Kedar huh? Is that the same Kedar of whose flocks will be gathered unto Israel in Isaiah 60:3-7?
If it is, you had better start converting to Judaism now! Hey, it's either now or later according to Isaiah 60:3-7 O Gentile Muslim!
(I say that because as a Gentile, I've already made my conversion).

You wrote"The Isaiah 42 is a prophesy regarding Prophet Muhammmed (PBUH) which is as clear as day light. I will post an explaination for it in an another post.

My response:Before you make a complete willfully ignorant move in trying to do such, remember that Isaiah chapters 40-66 has to do with the nation of Israel's redemption, of which all Gentile nations including all the Muslim- Gentile ones, will come to the glorious light of the God of Israel.
Isaiah 49:6-7 "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

To compliment the above text and to show unity among the entire Hebrew Bible:
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
- Isaiah 2 / Micah 2

And of course my favorite:
"And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for "evermore". -Ezekiel

To my statement "Ahmed, when you refer to Isaiah 48:6-9 read it on down to at least to verse 12"
You wrote "I was just pointing to the"deceitful" and "rebel from birth" part. So that the addition "wild donkey" is not used as an excuse to exclude one of the seed of Abraham(A.S) from the covenant.

My response:The verse is talking about what the evil Gentiles say about Israel even today when read fatwas ok-ing Jewish fetuses to be murdered for the glory of Islam.
The "deceitful" and "rebel from birth" coincides with the scripture also from Isaiah: "to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth". Because your eat up with Isalm, you would like for it to be saying that about Israel, but it is what the nations (Like that of Islam) are saying about Israel.
But since you're hesitant to read the following verses provibg what I'm saying, I'll print them out for you:
:"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

You wrote"As i mentioned the covenant is based on following the religion of Abraham(A.S). When you go against it your violating the covenant. Their circumcision was a sign of covenant of Abraham as mentioned :"And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin. And it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you." "And My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

My response:The Muslims have proven that they are not part of this covenant for they don't circumcise on the eighth day of life (but at 13 years)like the direct commandment was given:
"And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. - Genesis 17:12
When a Muslim child is 8 days old "among you" he is not traditionally circumcised in direct violation of the Avrahmaic covenant above!
This proves if nothing else as the Bible says Ishmael will have no part with Isaac / Jacob.
This is also the reason the Muslims don't set aside Shabat as the scriptures command - They have no part in the everlasting covenant that God has with Jacob.

You wrote"the covenant mentioned in gen 17:10,11 and 13 does not mention 8 days. while 17:12 does not say it is a condition of the covenant. The reason of being excluded is mentioned in 17:14, in which the 8th day is not taken as reason for exclusion.

My response:You're being willfully ignorant of what the scriptures are saying. The only age given as to the age as to "when" to circumcise is given in in verse 12!
Get this Ahmed: The only reason the Muslims can't and will not follow the commandment in verse 12 is because they rejected the Bible as the word of God. Therefore God allowed them to circumcise outside the covenant. The only time a male can be circumcised is through conversion at a later age. But of those under the covenant, the child must be circumcised on the eight day - THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF MENTIONING THE EIGHTH DAY OF LIFE TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!

You wrote "Psalms 37:22 is very clear that the blessed will inherit the land. And Ishmael (A.S)was mentioned as being among those blessed hence among those who will inherit the land.Obeying the law and blessing israel is not a blessing. Rather it is obeying the law that will led to being blessed."

My response:" Ezekiel 37:21-28 makes it very clear who it is that is prophesied to inherent their "OWN" land. Because Ishmael doesn't obey the law, (in fact) rejects it, they will not have no part it the land promised to Isaac and Isaac alone.
"Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that KEEPETH THE SABBATH FROM POLLUTING IT, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain"

You wrote"As mentioned the israilite prophets including Jermiah where sent only for Banu israil.
My response: You need to read every word of Jer. 1:5 very slowly and carefully paying strict attention to every word given especially the word "Nations".

You wrote "The present variations in translations show that "ass" and "donkey" are additions. In darby translation instead of "wild" we have "mountain".

My response: Why read it in English when the Hebrew is available?
"Perea" in Hebrew do mean wild donkey,sorry.
Maybe God knew you wouldn't keep the eighth day circumcision commandment and would pollute His sabbath by not keeping it?
If you don't like it, convert!

Joe Whitehead said...

The Ahmed:

you wrote:
http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Books/B0033P0001.aspx#Location%20and%20Nature%20of%20Arab%20Tribes
And of corse, there is no raise factor in Islam to live in the holyland.
the bloodline of the seed is important because of a Prophet arising.

The website is nothing more than Islamic based pseudo-history hogwash.

The blood line for those of the covenant of Avraham (through the Law of Moses) is for God to fulfill His word to Avraham-Isaac-Jacob / and David.

"Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them."
- Jeremiah

ahmed said...

ill reply soon. im not gettin the kick to type a response.

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
I will go back to something that you stated on an earlier post (02-04-09) where you stated, “No proof is there of Ishmaeel Alaihi salaam being unrighteous or defiling the land.”

I will give a more detailed answer to that claim than just God has determined “righteousness” by keeping of all the Law of Moses for any and all people of “the land” (Deuteronomy 6:25) including Gentiles outside the seed of Isaac:

“Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.” - Leviticus 20:2

From the scripture above “nobody” in the land was to give their offspring for an offering unto a god, and especially a false one. Deuteronomy 18:10 -12 goes into more detail:
“ There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire…For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: AND BECAUSE OF THESE ABOMINATIONS THE LORD THE GOD DOTH DRIVE THEM OUT FROM BEFORE THEE.”

In other words, peoples (nations) were driven out of the same exact land even before Israel took up residence in the same land (now promised unto Jacob) because of such things as offering their offspring unto Molech (BY FIRE Deut. 12:31) as well as to other gods.

When we apply this same principle of “righteousness” what people therefore (gentile or not) offers their very offspring up to a god in “the land”? It be more than fair to say that the elected Hamas representative Miriam Farhat gave her three sons as a sacrifice “in the land” to Allah - may her soul be righteously damned!
The ones who blow themselves up on public buses and in restaurants (many encouraged by their parents to do so) are in fact given their seed to Allah BY FIRE, "in the land"! When spiritually sick demented Muslim parents pass out candy during religious celebration for their offspring sacrificing themselves at their funerals, it shows Solomon’s wisdom that there is nothing new under the sun (Ecc 1:9) and that the spirit of sacrificing offspring unto gods “in the land” as it was with Molech, is still alive and well today.

Hamas, the biggest suppliers and supporters shahid suicide, was elected overwhelmingly in 2006 by the Palestinian people making the people responsible of this biblical-prohibited sacrificing of sons and daughters via their religious ideology and support. This sacrificing of seed to a god “in the land” is actually worse than during biblical times, for mass-murder upon the innocent wasn’t part of the rituals unto Molech as it is today among the Palestinians.

So if we take into consideration the text of Deuteronomy 18:10-12, as to what people should be driven from "the land" for the sake of the Law of Moses and therefore righteousness (Deuteronomy 6:25) the God of Israel shows that it "will be" the ones who make sacrifice videos while wearing ritual sacrifice green, with a Koran in one hand and a machine-gun in the other.

Joe Whitehead said...

Maybe my last post on the Moleck-shahid connection will give you that needed kick?
Later.

ahmed said...

No . i still didnt get the kick. My response may take 1 month. i have got some exams goin on.

Anyways i made a visit now for one question that popped up.

do you know any land In Israel or Israel-Palestine border or Palestine or Syria where Olive trees are now growing but previously there was no olive trees or never used to grow there ?

Joe Whitehead said...

To Ahmed,
Let me first say, there is no Biblical Palestine, just a now non-existing Philistine people who "occupied" the land of which the God of Israel had given to the descendants of Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Therefore there cannot be as you state, an "Israel-Palestine border or Palestine". Of course you know this, right?

As to the answer of your question, I'll give it to you in trivia form:

Out of all the many nations of the entire world, which single and only nation has more trees in it now than it had at the beginning of the twentieth century where over 240 million trees (including olive trees)has been planted, with millions more still to be planted?
Here's a hint: it isn't called "Palestine".

Once you have the answer, it becomes thrilling (at least for me) to compare Isaiah 35 with Ezekiel 37:21-28.

Whenever you do respond don't forget to give me those dates as to when the Torah was rewritten. I'm still having trouble understanding why Isa stated "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" when the Torah was supposedly rewritten?
Did he mean to say, "Search the "rewritten" scriptures"?
Or was Jesus' very quote a rewritten statement too?
If so, supply the dates for this rewrite too, if you don't mind.

Matzal tov on the exams!

Joe Whitehead said...

Ahmed,
It's been well over a month now. School is over, no exams requested, where are those dates, times, and places as to when the Hebrew scriptures were altered as traditional Islam teaches? You never was able to come up with any tangible historical evidence in proving the Koran to be true on this issue.

Do you have no more comments, leaving me with the belief that I was right all along about Islam and its make-believe doctrines and traditions?

-Joe Whitehead